Miami Marlins 2016 Offseason Discussion Thread

[Namaste]

We are nowhere near a contender

This fuckin guy, man.

Do you have any clue how late in the season the Marlins were very much in the Wild Card race?

And that was with the team being like bottom 5 in OPS.

[fish16]

This fuckin guy, man.

Do you have any clue how late in the season the Marlins were very much in the Wild Card race?

And that was with the team being like bottom 5 in OPS.

Actually, we werent in the wild card race very late in the year. We were under .500 on September 3. IF you want to continue to hold out false hope that that is somehow a contender, be my guest. But because of the advent of the 2nd wild card, every one is "very much in" the wild card race unless youre flat out awful.

Also, i'm not sure if you heard, but this under .500 team in early september that was very much in the wild card race lost a top 5 player in the sport at a position that was not a strength for us in the first place. This team is nowhere near a contender, like I said.

And if we were bottom 5 in OPS, you realize we are currently looking at going into this year with the exact same lineup, correct?

[Namaste]

If you think this team is nowhere near a playoff contender than your only plan for this team should be blow the whole thing up and lose 97-103 games this year.

[fish16]

I'm fine with it. The Marlins haven't exactly done a great job hitting on first round picks outside of Yelich and Fernandez the last decade. If the team isn't competing in the next two years, odds are they'll get a better prospect for Jansen in trade than they would have drafted judging by how valuable these elite RPs are turning out to be for playoff teams.

That is such bad logic. The move is not to throw away first round picks because we havent been good at drafting, the move is to draft better and get better cheap young talent. IF the purpose of signing a big time closer was to trade him to rebuild the farm system, the move was to go as hard as possible after Chapman, not give up your first round pick, and then trade him and have the best of both worlds. Now that that is off the table, sign lesser relievers that don't require giving up draft picks, try to sign a few quality starters like Hammel and Fister, and continue to rebuild. There are no moves this team is making this offseason because of Jose's death that make us a contender, sorry to be realistic, but it's true, unless we get multiple breakouts from unlikely sources.

Not to mention im not sure why we are acting like bullpen is some huge pressing need for us. We have a very solid bullpen with a lesser reliever signing that doesnt necessitate us giving up a first round pick for the most overvalued position in sports.

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If you think this team is nowhere near a playoff contender than your only plan for this team should be blow the whole thing up and lose 97-103 games this year.

Or just dont make pointless moves to build on a strength for the most overvalued position in sport that will require giving up a first round pick. There is a huge difference between not being a playoff contender and being a horrific team. I never said we are bad, but we are not a playoff contender. We werent this past year and we definitely arent now that Jose died. I'm not saying dont add to the team to try and make us a contender, but signing a closer for huge money and giving up a first round pick to do so when that is the most overvalued position in sports and we have probably 3 guys already in the bullpen who could be solid closers already is horrific team management.

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And if we were going after a great position player or starter, i'm cool with losing a first round pick, but the marlins more than anyone have seen over the years how easy it is to find a closer, and on a team that if you were realistic you would see is not a playoff team barring something completely unexpected, it makes no sense to give up a first round pick given the state of our farm system, how easy it is to find a closer, the strength of our current bullpen, and the other options out there who are not bad in and of themselves.

[MiamiHomer]

You completely misunderstood my point but ok lol.

You are making this move out to be some massive disaster when that isn't the case.

[fish16]

You completely misunderstood my point but ok lol.

You are making this move out to be some massive disaster when that isn't the case.

I didnt misunderstand your point. But if the reason for giving up a first round pick for a reliever is that we could trade the reliever for a better prospect than we would get, that is incredibly short sighted when there are other relievers out there who could both get us a quality prospect in a trade and not cost us a first round pick. Uehara, Ziegler, Feliz, etc all would get us a prospect if they have a good year, as would Ramos and Barraclough. Not to mention relievers are the most volatile players in baseball. Not to say Jansen would blow up with us, because he is a great pitcher, but he is not automatic to be as dominant as he was with the dodgers, and again, reliever is not a huge need for our team. A great closer would be awesome, but we have 3 guys in our pen who could close competently and we are not close to contending.

[MiamiHomer]

[tweet]806861886595665920[/tweet]

[fish16]

probably a smart move on Chapman's part. We tried though at least.

[Erick]

If we sign Jansen, we have the best bullpen in baseball. Stop making it seem like the team has zero shot to contend.

[MiamiHomer]

I didnt misunderstand your point. But if the reason for giving up a first round pick for a reliever is that we could trade the reliever for a better prospect than we would get, that is incredibly short sighted when there are other relievers out there who could both get us a quality prospect in a trade and not cost us a first round pick. Uehara, Ziegler, Feliz, etc all would get us a prospect if they have a good year, as would Ramos and Barraclough. Not to mention relievers are the most volatile players in baseball. Not to say Jansen would blow up with us, because he is a great pitcher, but he is not automatic to be as dominant as he was with the dodgers, and again, reliever is not a huge need for our team. A great closer would be awesome, but we have 3 guys in our pen who could close competently and we are not close to contending.

I'm not saying that signing Jansen is the move because we can trade him later for a better prospect. I said that because you keep saying the deal would be a disaster and that wouldn't be the case since there would be ways to rectify it if the team isn't as competitive as they hope.

Also, this whole idea of not needing Jansen because the bullpen is already strong seems pointless. Why not make a great part of the team even greater. SP in FA is extremely weak this year and they clearly don't have the assets to trade for one. So I actually think this move can lessen the fear on needing to depend on average SP the Marlins have now.

[fish16]

I'm not saying that signing Jansen is the move because we can trade him later for a better prospect. I said that because you keep saying the deal would be a disaster and that wouldn't be the case since there would be ways to rectify it if the team isn't as competitive as they hope.

Also, this whole idea of not needing Jansen because the bullpen is already strong seems pointless. Why not make a great part of the team even greater. SP in FA is extremely weak this year and they clearly don't have the assets to trade for one. So I actually think this move can lessen the fear on needing to depend on average SP the Marlins have now.

And i'm saying, there are ways of making the good bullpen great without giving up a first round pick on a team with the worst farm system in the league (or at least close) because there are other relievers available, and there is no telling if Jansen blows up here or gets injured, in which case youre left with no first round pick to help rebuild the farm system and an injured closer on a bad team. Uehara and Ziegler both fulfill the same type of thing you are saying would be good without having to give up a first round pick. Relievers are the easiest to find and most volatile position in baseball.

This is off topic somewhat, but part of the reason the marlins havent been to the playoffs in a long time is that single injuries kill this team more than any other team in the league. The marlins lose stanton for long periods of time, and while no team is able to sustain huge injuries consistently like that, the best teams have great depth to at the very least counter act some of those injuries. For example, the cardinals lost Wainwright and Carpenter for entire years a few different times and still made the playoffs, and even won the world series, despite losing one of their best pitchers. They were able to do this because they have an organizational philosophy of great drafting and scouting and because of this have great, young, cheap, quality depth consistently to be able to overcome injuries like that. On the flip side, the marlins draft terribly, trade terribly, and scout terribly (both their own players and other teams players), and are consistently fucked whenever they have injuries because we have crappy 30-somthing veterans as replacements rather than good young cheap players.

I'm not saying this one first round pick is going to be the end of the world if we give it up, it's the consistent organizational philosophy of not valuing good, young, cheap talent through the draft that continually leads to lost seasons due to injuries. Stanton is a huge piece of our team, and any team will be hurt badly losing him in the lineup, but the best teams have years of organizational moves that lead to better depth that allow them to lose players but not completely tank seasons. That is my biggest complaint, not this one individual move. It is this individual move in the scope of the entire organizational philosophy of not sticking to a plan due to Loria's impatience.

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Another example is the cubs were just like us in a lot of ways a few years ago when Theo took over. But years of patience, sticking to a plan and not deviating from it based on the impatience of an owner, and good drafting and scouting through trades led them to be able to quickly acquire great young talent, and because they didnt deviate from the plan, when they were finally a great team, they had the pieces to make trades to acquire talent to put them over the top.

Now obviously they are a bigger market team than us and made a few free agency signings, but they won the world series this year based on the patience of their front office and ownership as well as great drafting and scouting for years at a time, something this front office and ownership have proven they can not do.

[Erick]

The Uehara/Ziegler thing is cool, but lets not kid ourselves. Jansen is way better than those guys. Obviously, it's more of a risk for Jansen, but the talent isn't comparable. Jansen is as good as it gets.

[fish16]

The Uehara/Ziegler thing is cool, but lets not kid ourselves. Jansen is way better than those guys. Obviously, it's more of a risk for Jansen, but the talent isn't comparable. Jansen is as good as it gets.

I completely agree, and i'm not sitting here arguing that Jansen is not worth the money he is going to get, i'm saying that relievers are the easiest thing to find in baseball, and even lesser relievers were traded at this past years deadline for good prospects, if that is the route we want to go.

My opinion would be completely different if he didnt cost a first round pick or if this team was a contender or a piece away from being a contender. But with Jose's death, we should not be focusing on trying to do what we can to piece together a .500 team this year. Every move should be with the future in mind and with the focus of trying to acquire as much good young talent as possible and rebulding the farm system, especially as a small market team.

[tjfla]

The Chapman thing wasn't gonna happen. The only reason was Jeff wanted him. It was a done deal he was headed back to NYY

As for today,I think the FO was so busy yesterday they forgot the Rule 5 Draft was today and didn't protect anyone

Lost
Jose Adames
Sean Donatello
Matt Ramsey

Picked
OF Cal Towey
LHP Nick Maronde
UT Alex Yarbrough

[HUGG]

Alex Yarbrough added as well