Cameron Maybin Thread: Maybin Some Discussion, Maybin Some Fighting, It's All Good!

[JVega]

:mjpop

[Chewford]

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

I, for one, believe they have. I mean, when you look at string theory, you'd have to think so. How else do we explain the occurrence of black holes?

[Swifty]

lou, the problem is you're looking at the numbers and trying to explain how they got there. I look at how he gets to the numbers, and quite frankly think that any sustained success is just either option 1: "luck" or option 2: a AAAA player. That's not to say he's without hope, but rather that this player simply cannot be a force on his own merit. There's more to him than just minor league numbers.

That you look at the numbers and say "well, he walked at AA and walked at AAA" completely ignores the point of a professional baseball organization, winning ballgames at the major league level, and beyond that, you simply attribute his numbers to his success only. For you, it's completely inconceivable that Maybin piled up walks against pitchers with AAA ceilings, or against a guy who was two weeks away from having to bag groceries and lose his wife and kid. There's a hell of a discrepancy between Maybin, the aura of a top prospect, and a 28 year old AA pitcher trying desperately to get a September cup of coffee, they over throw, they stumble, they want no part of him. It's not hard to pile up walks against that kind of pitching, and make no mistake, I'm sure he saw that, certainly not every game, but more than you're willing to consider when you reach your "he has minor league walks, so his eye will translate" conclusion.

Which, again, brings us back to the primary point. I watch the game. I understand that in watching the game, there's a natural bias as the difference between a .280 hitter and a .310 hitter is minimal. I do, however, know that what I'm seeing with Maybin goes well beyond bias. HE IS OVER MATCHED. I simply cannot wrap my mind against any argument that defies the notion that he is over matched at the big league level. The only non-sequitor conclusion is your assertion that because he's been good in the minors he has to be good in the majors. You ignore that plenty of guys who are now great in the majors were mediocre in the minors, you ignore that minor league all-stars never see 500 big league at bats.. Your argument focuses so much on looking at the end result of Maybin as a minor leaguer that you simply retroactively explain his success, which, to me is ironic since you say you can't stand "I see, therefore it is" responses.

As I have said time and again, and as Ramp echoed earlier, there's a point where you hear so much about a guy you become enamored with him, and then when you finally see him at the major league level you wonder if there was some kind of mistake, if you're seeing the same player.

That Cameron Maybin killed AAA is awesome for New Orleans. That he did it at 22 isn't "oh wow get the fuck out of his way, here he comes" it's just good, encouraging. In this new era of baseball, 22 at AAA is slightly aggressive, but not Andruw Jones territory. What's more, AAA is a high level. It's not as if he made the jump from A to the bigs and looks like shit, he went from A to the bigs, got sent back, AA to the bigs, got sent back, now he's AAA and back and still looking like crap. I don't think it's even fair to say "welcome to the bigs, Cam." He's been here, even if you don't want to call the Detroit audition fair, he got a month with us last season, then he came back this April and looked like shit. At some point, there's no better explanation between his major/minor discrepancy other than, this is who he is. I have a really hard time saying success is inevitable when his minor league numbers are encouraging and his major league numbers are so so bad. It's not as if we're arguing over an average player right now who needs to take a step to greatness, he's a bad player who has a long way to go to be average. I'm willing to be patient with Maybin, and I am not saying this is the end of the road for him, but quite frankly, he should be more than a player than needs patience to just become serviceable. That cannot be the player I read so much about.

[Ralph]

racist

[Swifty]

I missed that.

[Bobbob1313]

he should be more than a player than needs patience to just become serviceable. That cannot be the player I read so much about.

Why? It happens with top prospects sometimes. I just don't see how you can ignore this like you did earlier. BJ Upton had a very similar situation to him and he turned out fine (like I said except for this year).

There are a ton of examples of guys who killed the minors, struggled early on (And looked "overmatched", which really doesn't mean anything because as I said, Dan Uggla looks over matched in most of his at bats, Cody Ross too. Doesn't mean they aren't good players) and still ended up being great players. Looking overmatched, or putting up bad numbers in 230 (!!!) PAs as a 20, 21, and 22 year old is not any sort of death knell.

You keep saying you're willing to be patient, but you talk about him as if he doesn't belong on a field. There's a high amount of dissonance between what you say in the middle and what you say at the end, which is just what Lou said.

Also, you seem to still be stuck on the fact that he was received in the Miguel Cabrera trade or that he's a top prospect. Like Nny said earlier, you criticize people and say "You guys are spoiled by Miggy and Hanley", but you write off a guy like Maybin because he's not 100% ready right now. It amazes me how you can, in one instance say "You can't compare Cameron Maybin and Gary Sheffield or BJ Upton because he is not those guys", but then say "He should be more than a guy who requires patience to be servicable" (ignoring that a .795 OPS is more than servicable from a CFer, which is what he has since coming up, albeit in a small sample). You can't have it both ways. Either guys follow their own development timetable (ie "he ain't upton") or they don't (ie "he should be better than this!").

[Chewford]

BJ Upton and a few others like Maybin turned out fine, other like him didn't turn out fine., none of it has any bearing on Cameron Maybin. Some people who play baseball suffer injury or death because they're trying to suffocate themselves as they finish jacking off; however, that has nothing to do with how Cameron Maybin will turn out.

[Bobbob1313]

BJ Upton and a few others like Maybin turned out fine, other like him didn't turn out fine., none of it has any bearing on Cameron Maybin. Some people who play baseball suffer injury or death because they're trying to suffocate themselves as they finish jacking off; however, that has nothing to do with how Cameron Maybin will turn out.

My whole point is that there's absolutely no reason to write a guy like Maybin off. And I know, Swift keeps saying "I'm wiling to be patient" and all that, but if you actually read what he's writing, that's not there at all. Yeah, he might look bad right now, but he's twenty-fucking-two. There's way more to be positive about than negative.

[Swifty]

If you actually read what I'm writing you see a more substantive discussion than BJ Upton turned out fine or he's only 22!!!!!!!

[Bobbob1313]

If you actually read what I'm writing you see a more substantive discussion than BJ Upton turned out fine or he's only 22!!!!!!!

Huh?

[Swifty]

Ok, we're now at the play dumb stage. That's fine and dandy. Keep shaking the BJ Upton tree and see if Cameron Maybin falls out.

[Bobbob1313]

Really?

You're entire point is "I don't like how he looks."

Discussion fucking over, then, doubly so if you're going to flat out ignore any point to the contrary. This is the problem with basing your argument on something purely subjective. You get to rebuff all comers by saying "I SEE WHATI SEE AND WHAT I SEE IS BAD AND ANYBODY WHO DOESN'T SEE WHAT I SEE ISN'T WORTH DISCUSSING THIS WITH."

That is, for all intents and purposes, your entire argument.

Lou brings up BB% (and how it has remained pretty constant at the Minor and Major league level, thus making your whole point about bagging groceries completely moot).

"I SEE HIM BEING OVERMATCHED!"

I bring up LD%.

"I SEE HIM BEING OVERMATCHED!"

Wash, rinse, repeat (with a little "scouts said he was the best ever and we traded miguel cabrera for him, so he should be ready now!" thrown in for good measure).

Well, shit. Good for you. But there's not really any point in this discussion then. If all you are going to bring is "I SEE I SEE I SEE" then nobody can say anything in reply. And if you're then going to turn around and say people are "playing dumb" then there's really no point in discussing this with you.

[Party]

Writing a guy off and saying he has shown nothing are two completely different points. Saying a guy is less than expected or expressing disappointment in a player is not writing off a player.

[Bobbob1313]

Writing a guy off and saying he has shown nothing are two completely different points. Saying a guy is less than expected or expressing disappointment in a player is not writing off a player.

I don't see how he has shown nothing, but that's an entirely subjective argument. Maybe I'm reading what he's saying wrong but when he says Maybin's entire minor league career is either "luck" or "being a AAAA player", that sounds like writing off.

[Ramp]

Maybin has literally shown nothing in the major leagues. I'd love to get all 230 of his at bats on tape and watch them (by love I mean hate). It's staggering how lost he looks up here. Again, not saying I think this is even close to the finished product but it's a similar vibe to that of Eric Reed back in the day. Scares the hell out of me.

Hopefully Maybin goess all Adam Jones on us next year (I AM NOT COMPARING HIM TO ADAM JONES YOU FUCKING R'TARDS) and takes a major leap. That would be for me.