Marlins trade Mat Latos, Mike Morse to LA

[Bobbob1313]

One of these days the ownership group is actually going to re-invest the money they saved and operate like a real major-league franchise and boy is lou finally going to rub it in all our faces

[lou]

Lou you're saying that to have faith that they'll continue making moves. But this past year they went heavy on the trade route with 3 major deals reds, dodgers and yankees. The only deal that clearly upgraded the team was the yankees. And they gutted the top of the system to make those moves. The additional free agent signings have just been a bust. Reyes and Buehle are the only free agent signings that come to mind that turned out alright but they were both overpaid.

If you're bringing up Reyes and Buerhle, they certainly upgraded through the Blue Jays trade.

I don't care if its FA money, or acquiring FA. No one here can argue that last offseason wasn't fun and we were all relatively happy they were doing stuff and not really mortgaging the future (i.e., you can live with a 3 WAR Gordon and no Heaney, etc.)

No one has negated this yet - why are they going to pocket all the money after handing out Stanton $325 and Yelich $50 something. I agree, we can all have "low faith" in them making the right move with said money, but I just cannot see them doing nothing and going back to a $40 million payroll.

They are going to do something to build around Fernandez and Stanton, and all I am saying is, let's see what they do before bitching about a Michael Fucking Morse OPSing .500 salary dump. Given the circumstances, that was the right move. Dump him and move on. This year is a disaster, but let's not ignore the core is pretty good.

Sorry to all if I am so forgiving, I just want to see the 25 man roster after the winter to be able to assess. I don't give a shit about the C+ prospects they could have gotten instead of saving $14 million bucks to get a real player with next year.

[nny]

Marlins have 5 players in the top-31 worst players this season going by fWAR on their roster.

Ichiro, McGehee, Mathis, Solano, and Morse (who's at 31).

Only one other team has more than 2 and that's Colorado with 3.

And we have five.

[Bobbob1313]

I just cannot see them doing nothing and going back to a $40 million payroll..

Oh, they're not going to have a $40 million payroll.

They'll have a $75 million payroll -- still lowest in baseball -- give Hechavarria a 5/$50 million extension -- "We locked up a future All-Star long-term!" -- add someone who had a BABIP-fueled career outlier year -- Mike Pelfrey would look great in a Marlins uniform? Maybe they trade Marcell Ozuna for Miguel Gonzalez if the Orioles will pay his arbitration bill? -- and add Mike Napoli for the Morse contract. They'll move Nicolino into the starting rotation -- "Top prospect!" -- and spend 20% of the payroll on the bullpen again and win 78 games and trade Napoli and Cosart next summer along with a competitive balance pick -- "We had to dump Napoli's salary so we could re-invest it next offseason!"

Or, you know, maybe they'll just stop being who they have been for 13 years.

[Jay]

Marlins have 5 players in the top-31 worst players this season going by fWAR on their roster.

Ichiro, McGehee, Mathis, Solano, and Morse (who's at 31).

Only one other team has more than 2 and that's Colorado with 3.

And we have five.

To be fair McGehee has all of 44 PAs with the Marlins and has a 0bWAR with them. I'm not saying it was a bad move to go get him because it certainly wasn't given how we had multiple injuries and no depth, but it certainly is a problem the way they have used him.

I stand by what I said before about Ichiro. The question is he a .285 BABIP player at this point in his career is important. I forgot to look at his batted ball data earlier and it's concerning, but has he lost that much speed since last year?

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I probably went to far saying Loria is essentially blameless, but his payroll constraints are not the issue here; it's the people he has running the baseball operations. I doubt he's involved in hiring the scouts or analytics staff who make the FO look smart or in the Marlins case incompetent.

[Swifty]

Consider how saturated the market is for starting pitching, it would have been better to keep Latos and try and resign him for next year. There is a lot of starting pitching in free agency this year. Latos still has injury concerns, his wife likes miami, and his basic line looks bad. It's really the perfect situation to sign him to a below rate market deal. If that doesn't happen offer him arbitration and hope he signs elsewhere. And if you can't get overpaying Latos based on an arbitration agreement why the fuck are we paying 3 managers half the time and DFAed Salty after 33 PAs. If you can do that shit you can eat 6 million on a starting pitcher who is productive when you have nothing.

I have zero problem with not spending money. I have a huge problem with how poorly they spend money. Hire an analytics department, keep a puppet manager or at least til the end of his contract, try and avoid the free agent market, and draft well. IFA isn't even a big issue if you buyout contracts and draft right.

Yeah, I mean the issue is there's no way these guys would tender the QO to Latos to get any kind of recoupment and they'd want him to take another one year deal when odds are pretty good he's going to push for 2+ an option in case his career goes completely sideways (if it hasn't already). You can't expect them to ever play the market because they don't understand it. They offered Cabrera a 1 year or 3 year deal before trading him to Detroit after he wanted a larger overall guarantee or just the arbitration award for the one year deal. The Marlins were the only team offering Reyes in excess of $85 million and then they said fuck it and went over $100 million. These guys are dumb.

[Jay]

Yeah, I mean the issue is there's no way these guys would tender the QO to Latos to get any kind of recoupment and they'd want him to take another one year deal when odds are pretty good he's going to push for 2+ an option in case his career goes completely sideways (if it hasn't already). You can't expect them to ever play the market because they don't understand it. They offered Cabrera a 1 year or 3 year deal before trading him to Detroit after he wanted a larger overall guarantee or just the arbitration award for the one year deal. The Marlins were the only team offering Reyes in excess of $85 million and then they said fuck it and went over $100 million. These guys are dumb.

But the guy running the show who hired Reyes was fired so the problem is solved.

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If you're bringing up Reyes and Buerhle, they certainly upgraded through the Blue Jays trade.

I don't care if its FA money, or acquiring FA. No one here can argue that last offseason wasn't fun and we were all relatively happy they were doing stuff and not really mortgaging the future (i.e., you can live with a 3 WAR Gordon and no Heaney, etc.)

No one has negated this yet - why are they going to pocket all the money after handing out Stanton $325 and Yelich $50 something. I agree, we can all have "low faith" in them making the right move with said money, but I just cannot see them doing nothing and going back to a $40 million payroll.

They are going to do something to build around Fernandez and Stanton, and all I am saying is, let's see what they do before bitching about a Michael Fucking Morse OPSing .500 salary dump. Given the circumstances, that was the right move. Dump him and move on. This year is a disaster, but let's not ignore the core is pretty good.

Sorry to all if I am so forgiving, I just want to see the 25 man roster after the winter to be able to assess. I don't give a shit about the C+ prospects they could have gotten instead of saving $14 million bucks to get a real player with next year.

I was talking about productivity of the guys they've signed via free agency in that case. Like they have a horrible track record of guys falling off cliffs recently.

[lou]

Oh, they're not going to have a $40 million payroll.

They'll have a $75 million payroll -- still lowest in baseball -- give Hechavarria a 5/$50 million extension -- "We locked up a future All-Star long-term!" -- add someone who had a BABIP-fueled career outlier year -- Mike Pelfrey would look great in a Marlins uniform? Maybe they trade Marcell Ozuna for Miguel Gonzalez if the Orioles will pay his arbitration bill? -- and add Mike Napoli for the Morse contract. They'll move Nicolino into the starting rotation -- "Top prospect!" -- and spend 20% of the payroll on the bullpen again and win 78 games and trade Napoli and Cosart next summer along with a competitive balance pick -- "We had to dump Napoli's salary so we could re-invest it next offseason!"

Or, you know, maybe they'll just stop being who they have been for 13 years.

Well signing Stanton and Yelich was stopping being who they have been.

But I mean, all of that would be awful (although probably could live with Nicolino as a 5th SP candidate) so we can groan together if that is the offseason plan. They will have failed if those are the moves.

[Bobbob1313]

I probably went to far saying Loria is essentially blameless, but his payroll constraints are not the issue here; it's the people he has running the baseball operations. I doubt he's involved in hiring the scouts or analytics staff who make the FO look smart or in the Marlins case incompetent.

This is all wildly naive.

The idea that money invested in the draft, international free agency and the actual major league team aren't the core issue with the team is crazy.

There are outliers like the Rays and A's, small market teams that don't invest in any of those facets of the game aren't going to be able to compete, and it doesn't matter how smart they are.

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Well signing Stanton and Yelich was stopping being who they have been.

But I mean, all of that would be awful (although probably could live with Nicolino as a 5th SP candidate) so we can groan together if that is the offseason plan. They will have failed if those are the moves.

That's pretty much what they did last offseason, with the the Hechavarria deal in place of the Yelich deal.

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I wasn't a big fan of their offseason last year as well, and I didn't think this was a playoff contender anyways. So I don't think I'm just playing the results here. I don't trust them to spend the money they should, and I don't trust them to be smart even if they did.

[Jay]

A good GM would convince Loria that spending money on drafting talent is more important than overspending in free agency. Or just be like give me the budget I have for the draft and roster.

[Bobbob1313]

A good GM would convince Loria that spending money on drafting talent is more important than overspending in free agency. Or just be like give me the budget I have for the draft and roster.

We don't know whether the front office has tried that. We do know that the organization doesn't invest at an even average rate in any of their potential avenues. That's an ownership problem, through and through. This is ridiculous.

[lou]

I wasn't a big fan of their offseason last year as well, and I didn't think this was a playoff contender anyways. So I don't think I'm just playing the results here. I don't trust them to spend the money they should, and I don't trust them to be smart even if they did.

I didn't think they were a playoff contender unless they got a "Shields", but it was steps in the right direction and everything could have clicked.

No problems with not trusting them to spend the money smart. They haven't earned a benefit of a doubt there, but I strongly disagree with anyone thinking they are going to pocket it. I'd be shocked after dishing out so much to Stanton. That's all.

[Bobbob1313]

So, where do you think payroll lands? Let's just start there. What isn't "pocketing it" to you.

[Jay]

This is what i think will happen: they'll hang onto Ramos (cause we need a closer), trade Ozuna cause he under-performed (he'll have a career year and make them look like idiots), sign Hech or Dee to a buyout (they'll end up having a horrible year), miss out on all the top tier starting pitchers, not fill the hole left by trading Ozuna, and sign a number 4 starting pitcher, Baker, Ichiro-type and a back up catcher.

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I have a huge problem with reinvesting money saved from any trades because you aren't going to be using that money to sign an ace or number 2 SP cause they'll require more years than you have money for. Unless of course you expect that SP to be traded at the deadline when the half-ass attempt to put together a decent team failed or in the offseason after they finished .500 and need a market correction.

[marlinsfan24]

I didn't think they were a playoff contender unless they got a "Shields", but it was steps in the right direction and everything could have clicked.

No problems with not trusting them to spend the money smart. They haven't earned a benefit of a doubt there, but I strongly disagree with anyone thinking they are going to pocket it. I'd be shocked after dishing out so much to Stanton. That's all.

I did not believe the off-season was a step in the right direction. The way they did everything, they were all in for 2015, but they really weren't. I don't like their chances in 2016 or 2017, and then Stanton's contract booms.