Marlins Sign Placido Polanco

[CrimsonCane]

Probably not.

I don't think he would have been making $6 flat per year, but I get your point.

Do you disagree with the rest of my reasoning?

I agree with it in principle but I don't think it's relevant in this case. It's not like the only way the Marlins could have gotten Cespedes was to make a better 4 year offer than Oakland. They could've stuck with their 6 year plan to take advantage of all the things you mentioned but just offered him more money on that 6 year deal.

My point is that the stakes were high enough where they needed to make that incremental move upward IF they had already evaluated him at 6/42 and they had no other alternatives. Value doesnt come in a vacuum; the opportunity cost for a player like Cespedes was higher for us than any other franchise.

[Beef]

I disagree. Unless the person is saying, "I could've done a better job," I don't find it hypocritical to essentially say, "Wow. I was wrong, but that other person is supposed to be smarter and they ought to have made a better decision than me."

That's fine, we just differ there. I'd feel like a dick if I did that so I could criticize someone else.

Also, most here basically do say they could do a better job and aren't very willing to say "I was wrong" unless it seemingly gives them the ability to call Jeff Ireland, Beinfest, etc. dumb

[fauowls44]

So you're a diehard Marlins fan, but you're basically rooting for the team to lose so they're forced to sell? Is that correct?

Losing games won't make them sell. Only time will make them sell. Loria will sell the team as soon as he can contractually do it and keep all the money...which I think is 2015?? (Which, by the way, is why I find those freaking out about Stanton never wanting to sign here sort of funny...he may hate Loria and how they run this team, but by the time they NEED to sign him, Loria will likely be gone).

Anyway, he has no reason to sell now and losing games won't change that. And he will sell...he has nobody in his family that wants the team, he's not getting any younger, and he can't possibly be having much fun owning this team (outside the large sums of money he maks from it). In 2 years, he gets to keep all the profits. My guess is that he never meant to keep the team this long when he bought it. If I remember correctly, they planned on having a new stadium by 2006...he would have sold long ago if the stadium battle didn't take so long. This offseason has to be about laying the groundwork for a sale. There is no other reason anyone who owns a team would take a flamethrower to it's fanbase like this other than to prepare to make your asset more attractive for a future sale. They have zero payroll committed past this year....all the front office contracts run through 2015....what other explanation is there? They have nothing committed past the year they can sell without penalty. To me that screams "Franchise for sale!".

So if you really want to see the team sold now, start lobbying Miami and Miami-Dade to drop the sale penalty in the stadium agreement immediately. They'd be gone in a year.

[oakelmpine]

Also, we probably shouldn't call every positive rumor a lie and then go on and post as though every negative rumor is true. oakelmpine...

Why ? Why should I be fair to them, have they been fair to me as not only s a customer & consumer of their product but because of the implied promises they made before the stadium was built to keep the payroll & team competitive? You could have made sweeping changes with this team and still at least tried to compete this year (and maybe in 2014). Let's be honest, the lineup as it stands now won't win 75 games and will struggle I think to beat last years 69 wins. They had better hope the players they got back from these trades are good because if they aren't they are fucked for years, unless they have a change in luck in their drafting (which when compared to some teams isn't just bad but abysmal). They have chosen this path, that they think will work for them because in their eyes 2006 was a success. I would disagree with them, because it never produced a playoff team, which is SUPPOSED to be the aim - to get to the WS and win it, right ?

If this path doesn't work out, and lets face it, Stanton is gone most likely by the end of next year. The haul they get for him HAS to be spectacular or were screwed for a long time. They won't have any more chips to sell and the shelf will be bare, and they will then have to rely on the draft, which they really suck at.

Can you understand why I'm not a happy camper now ? Yes its a lot of negative projection, but what have they done in the last 3 or 4 years should give me hope they will get it right this time ?
--------------------

So you're a diehard Marlins fan, but you're basically rooting for the team to lose so they're forced to sell? Is that correct?

Not exactly, but if that is the end result of their continuing to lose and Loria gets tired of plying Mr. Big Shot and sells, you won't find me crying about it.
--------------------

Losing games won't make them sell. Only time will make them sell. Loria will sell the team as soon as he can contractually do it and keep all the money...which I think is 2015?? (Which, by the way, is why I find those freaking out about Stanton never wanting to sign here sort of funny...he may hate Loria and how they run this team, but by the time they NEED to sign him, Loria will likely be gone).

Anyway, he has no reason to sell now and losing games won't change that. And he will sell...he has nobody in his family that wants the team, he's not getting any younger, and he can't possibly be having much fun owning this team (outside the large sums of money he maks from it). In 2 years, he gets to keep all the profits. My guess is that he never meant to keep the team this long when he bought it. If I remember correctly, they planned on having a new stadium by 2006...he would have sold long ago if the stadium battle didn't take so long. This offseason has to be about laying the groundwork for a sale. There is no other reason anyone who owns a team would take a flamethrower to it's fanbase like this other than to prepare to make your asset more attractive for a future sale. They have zero payroll committed past this year....all the front office contracts run through 2015....what other explanation is there? They have nothing committed past the year they can sell without penalty. To me that screams "Franchise for sale!".

So if you really want to see the team sold now, start lobbying Miami and Miami-Dade to drop the sale penalty in the stadium agreement immediately. They'd be gone in a year.

You make sense and yes I have thought about this too, but rarely does anyone discuss it here or at another board I read.

Hopefully you are on target, but at another board some guy thinks that Samson is in line and that when Loria dies Samson will take the reins. I disagree with that but he is adamant it will happen. I pray he is wrong, but we'll see.
--------------------
By the way if this is the case, wouldn't he need to put them up in 2014 ? It has to take more than a year to negotiate a buy of this nature.

I swear I will pop a champagne bottle the night they announce that.

[fauowls44]

Why ? Why should I be fair to them, have they been fair to me as not only s a customer & consumer of their product but because of the implied promises they made before the stadium was built to keep the payroll & team competitive? You could have made sweeping changes with this team and still at least tried to compete this year (and maybe in 2014). Let's be honest, the lineup as it stands now won't win 75 games and will struggle I think to beat last years 69 wins. They had better hope the players they got back from these trades are good because if they aren't they are fucked for years, unless they have a change in luck in their drafting (which when compared to some teams isn't just bad but abysmal). They have chosen this path, that they think will work for them because in their eyes 2006 was a success. I would disagree with them, because it never produced a playoff team, which is SUPPOSED to be the aim - to get to the WS and win it, right ?

If this path doesn't work out, and lets face it, Stanton is gone most likely by the end of next year. The haul they get for him HAS to be spectacular or were screwed for a long time. They won't have any more chips to sell and the shelf will be bare, and they will then have to rely on the draft, which they really suck at.

Can you understand why I'm not a happy camper now ? Yes its a lot of negative projection, but what have they done in the last 3 or 4 years should give me hope they will get it right this time ?
--------------------


Not exactly, but if that is the end result of their continuing to lose and Loria gets tired of plying Mr. Big Shot and sells, you won't find me crying about it.
--------------------


You make sense and yes I have thought about this too, but rarely does anyone discuss it here or at another board I read.

Hopefully you are on target, but at another board some guy thinks that Samson is in line and that when Loria dies Samson will take the reins. I disagree with that but he is adamant it will happen. I pray he is wrong, but we'll see.
--------------------

Samson is not inheriting this team. He's only related to Loria by his previous marriage...and Loria isn't holding on to the team until he dies. It's fairly obvious at this point that he's only owning it as long as he has to to maximize his profit. If he was planning on owning the team for another 20+ years, this business model is a terrible way to endear yourself to your customers. But if you are planning on selling the team soon, operating the team the way he has this offseason makes a ton of sense. By slashing playroll of an already bad team to basically nothing and having no future contractual commitments, you make the team that much more attractive to a future buyer. The next owner gets to bring in his own front office and players. The next owner also gets to host an All Star game (no chance Selig awards Loria the game in 2015 when Washington is also bidding for it). Basically whoever the next owner is gets to be the hero in Miami. No matter what they do, it will be a massive improvement over what is currently in place.

Sure, he may like baseball and I do believe he wants to win, but Loria owns the team for one reason...to make a ton of money when he sells. This has always been an investment for him, not a family business.

[tjfla]

I think people need to stop only talking about 3b for polanco because he is also a 2b. So far, between those two positions, we had Kouz, Solano, and Cog. I don't view it as a "here's our starting 3b", I view it as "We have two MAJOR holes and this should give us some stability while someone wins the other spot"

He is our Starting 3B with us probably signing someone else to compete with Solano

2B-Solano/FA
UT(2B,SS,3B)-Whoever loses 2B job Solano/FA
3B-Polanco/Dobbs

[Erick]

Why ? Why should I be fair to them, have they been fair to me as not only s a customer & consumer of their product but because of the implied promises they made before the stadium was built to keep the payroll & team competitive? You could have made sweeping changes with this team and still at least tried to compete this year (and maybe in 2014). Let's be honest, the lineup as it stands now won't win 75 games and will struggle I think to beat last years 69 wins. They had better hope the players they got back from these trades are good because if they aren't they are fucked for years, unless they have a change in luck in their drafting (which when compared to some teams isn't just bad but abysmal). They have chosen this path, that they think will work for them because in their eyes 2006 was a success. I would disagree with them, because it never produced a playoff team, which is SUPPOSED to be the aim - to get to the WS and win it, right ?

If this path doesn't work out, and lets face it, Stanton is gone most likely by the end of next year. The haul they get for him HAS to be spectacular or were screwed for a long time. They won't have any more chips to sell and the shelf will be bare, and they will then have to rely on the draft, which they really suck at.

Can you understand why I'm not a happy camper now ? Yes its a lot of negative projection, but what have they done in the last 3 or 4 years should give me hope they will get it right this time ?

I'm not saying you should trust them or be a "happy camper;" what I'm saying is that this is a message board, and people have different opinions. If you're going to debate your side, the least you could do is be consistent with your argument.

If I can't mention that rumors have stated that they went after three of the top 3B prospects before signing Polanco, it's only fair that you stop ridiculing them for every negative rumor out there. You're allowed to believe what you want, but it's impossible to have a conversation with someone who's that close-minded/biased.

[Namaste]

Losing games won't make them sell. Only time will make them sell. Loria will sell the team as soon as he can contractually do it and keep all the money...which I think is 2015?? (Which, by the way, is why I find those freaking out about Stanton never wanting to sign here sort of funny...he may hate Loria and how they run this team, but by the time they NEED to sign him, Loria will likely be gone).

Anyway, he has no reason to sell now and losing games won't change that. And he will sell...he has nobody in his family that wants the team, he's not getting any younger, and he can't possibly be having much fun owning this team (outside the large sums of money he maks from it). In 2 years, he gets to keep all the profits. My guess is that he never meant to keep the team this long when he bought it. If I remember correctly, they planned on having a new stadium by 2006...he would have sold long ago if the stadium battle didn't take so long. This offseason has to be about laying the groundwork for a sale. There is no other reason anyone who owns a team would take a flamethrower to it's fanbase like this other than to prepare to make your asset more attractive for a future sale. They have zero payroll committed past this year....all the front office contracts run through 2015....what other explanation is there? They have nothing committed past the year they can sell without penalty. To me that screams "Franchise for sale!".

So if you really want to see the team sold now, start lobbying Miami and Miami-Dade to drop the sale penalty in the stadium agreement immediately. They'd be gone in a year.

Maybe it's because of the holidays but I'm very surprised at the lack of responses this post got.

I mean, Erick comments on the vast majority of trades/conspiracy theories yet it appears he just moved on and decided to tackle an oakelmpine post instead.

It's an idea that has been spoken about very little about (if ever). Especially in the way that fauowls outlined it.

Did I miss the memo where things can't be spoken about more than once? Holy fuck.

[Mainge]

It's an idea that's been spoken about before.

[HUGG]

Loria selling to the team is far too important and far to potentially franchise-changing to rely on speculation about. I'll believe it when it happens and not a second sooner.


And, yes, Daft, I want him to sell the team.

[Beef]

What's the thing we did wrong with fauowls?

[oakelmpine]

Fish Stripes article : Marlins lack foresight and Loria is a meddling doof

http://www.fishstripes.com/2012/12/2...matt-dominguez

Ouch !

[Beef]

ehe, Matt Dominguez option for six years.

They'd be in a great position if that was what they were going into next year, and more importantly, the future with.

Matt Bates: Writer of "The Best Long-Overdue Comeback of 2012: The Return of Speed and Defense"

[emkayseven]

His answer was brief, but the confidence behind it was abundant.

Asked if physically he was prepared for a full season as the Miami Marlins' everyday third baseman, Placido Polanco said: "Yes, sir."

Polanco's one-year, $2.75 million free agent deal sparked questions about whether he was a full or partial solution to the third base vacancy. Due in large part to a back issue, Polanco appeared in just 90 games for the Phillies last season. Now 37, Polanco has seen his games played total drop each of the last three years.

"Everything has been taken care of," Polanco said. "[My injury] came from an operation I had in 2011 to fix a double sports hernia. I still had problems [in 2012], a lot of scar tissue and that area was weak. I was compensating a lot with my back and other parts of my body. Thank God, all that is in the past and I feel very healthy.

"My [offseason] training has gone very well. I had a couple of years where I didn't feel as sure, but I've done a lot of exercises and I've tested all parts of my body. I feel healthy. I don't even want to talk about it too much because those are bad experiences and it leaves a bad taste in your mouth because you really don't enjoy the game when you're injured, and I love the game."

Polanco 16 months ago underwent the procedure that contributed to his rough 2012. An All-Star in 2011, Polanco followed that up with a .257/.302/.327 slash line, lowering his career marks over 15 seasons to .299/.344/.413.

Not being at his best physically also impacted Polanco's defense. As a Gold Glove winner a year earlier, Polanco totaled 16 runs saved according to John Dewan's fielding evaluation system. That figure dropped to two in 2012.

His range factor also dipped from 2.90 to 2.78, which still would have ranked fourth among the all regular third basemen had Polanco qualified. The average third baseman in 2012 had a 2.57 range factor according to The Bill James Handbook.

The Marlins did not speak to Polanco about playing anywhere except third, but he's logged extensive time at second as well. If, for example, Donovan Solano struggles and non-roster invitee Kevin Kouzmanoff takes off, Polanco could shift spots.

"Right now, I'm fine as the third baseman, but I'm part of the team and when you're part of the team if the manager needs you to catch or pitch an inning, I'm available," Polanco said. "We're all there for the same purpose, which is to win games. If one day they need me at second or they change direction halfway in and say, 'You need to play second now,' we're a team and whatever decisions they make are for the good of the team."

A Miami resident since 1991, Polanco garnered interest from two or three other teams but his top choice was to play at home. He hopes the fan base in spite of some unpopular offseason moves gives this team a chance.

"Having a good team on paper doesn't mean much," Polanco said. "I've been on tremendous teams on paper and we couldn't win a game. I've also been on teams where on paper we were OK or so-so, but we won. That tells you everything. The team that plays good, intelligent baseball is the one that's going to win. It all depends on us."

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/m...,4613906.story

[lou]

Kouzmanoff reference. Respect.