Winter Meetings 2012 (Miami Marlins)

[Namaste]

I'm willing to bet every other team in baseball would have bought out Stanton already

Of course they would have.

Loria SWEATS the action. He checks the balance in his checking account so to speak.

People who own NFL/MLB/NBA teams do it because it's another toy. They already have 17 luxury cars, 5 houses and 2 boats.

He owns this team on a budget. He's playing in the wrong playground.

[Erick]

Off the charts sarcastic. Off. the. charts.

There are bad ideas. There are horrible ideas. Then there is acquiring Vernon Wells for 2 years on a non contending team and absorbing $30 million to get Peter Bourjos, where the organization already has, I don't know, Stanton, Yelich, Marisnick, Ozuna, Ruggiano, and lesser guys like Silverio, Solarzano, Keys, Copeland, etc. in the pipeline.

I don't disagree maybe they should absorb bad contracts to get a player, but two years of Vernon Wells with that contract, is not the way to do it. And getting outfielders, is not the way to do it.

You should think more along the lines of absorbing Harang and Punto (combined $8.5 in 2013). Consistent innings and a "good" bench guy to mix with Solano and Kouzmanoff. Vernon Wells, you crazy.

Says the guy who was willing to give B.J. Upton $15 per year even after the Toronto firesale trade.

It's nice that you mention all of those OF'ers. What they all have in common is that they're probably not long-term CF'ers; Peter Bourjos is and he's, arguably, the best defensive CF'er in the game today at that.

You've said all offseason we should look into a long-term CF'er for the future of our core/team. Bourjos is that guy and Nolasco is giving up nothing in return.

You've also said in this thread that the goal is to decide on Stanton because this team is building for '15 and beyond. By the year 2015 (when you, yourself, have said the Marlins will realistically be ready to compete again), Vernon Wells is gone.

So, basically, we absorb a bad contract for the next two irrelevant years and get a long-term asset in return without giving up anything.
I don't think that's a horrible idea. And if it is a horrible idea, you probably shouldn't be the one saying it's a horrible idea. You're contradicting yourself.
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Perhaps you're undervaluing Bourjos. Getting a guy like that without giving up anything in return, in terms of talent, would be great.

For comparison's sake, Ben Revere cost the Phillies a major-league starter and a top prospect. Bourjos is a better player than Revere.

Guys like this don't come cheap; I think absorbing a bad contract is a nice alternative considering the context of our situation.

[shane]

The angels have spent something like $400 million the past two offseasons. They are playing to win now. How does a salary dump for wells contract improve their team? I'm pretty sure they rather eat the terrible contract and trade for the reigning cy young winner than add Nolasco to their rotation. I don't see a fit here. I see a Stanton trade more likely than this.

[lou]

Regardless of what you think, the Marlins view Marisnick as a longterm CF and they are going to give him that opportunity. Blocking him with two players as an organization, is idiotic. Especially with no prospects in the entire infield as good as your AA outfield. Especially because you have Stanton and Ruggiano controlled for 4 seasons each. And especially if blocking him with these guys causes you to absorb $30 million. If they would have not sold the team, BJ would have been fine at 4/$60 (never 5 years), but they sold them and got Marisnick. Major free agency went off the table with that move, unless they immediately reinvested the $200 they dished out and went nuts with BJ/Bourn, Anibal, K. Johnson, Ludwick, and Marcum (and kept Escobar) and completely "reloaded." But obviously, that's not a realistic scenario. I don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

As for Bourjos, he is cool? He might be a good starter, he might also get exposed with more playing time. He would be worth absorbing something. He is not worth absorbing $30 million. That is a silly number.

The idea of absorbing for a player is not a bad one. Vernon Wells/Peter Bourjos, is not that player. That's beyond terrifying.

[Erick]

The angels have spent something like $400 million the past two offseasons. They are playing to win now. How does a salary dump for wells contract improve their team? I'm pretty sure they rather eat the terrible contract and trade for the reigning cy young winner than add Nolasco to their rotation. I don't see a fit here. I see a Stanton trade more likely than this.

The Angels don't even hesitate to make this move. Nolasco improves their rotation to win now and getting rid of Vernon Wells (who they don't even play, themselves, because he's probably the worst contract in the game) gives them more money to spend in free agency this offseason and next offseason. It would be a no-brainer for the Angels.
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Regardless of what you think, the Marlins view Marisnick as a longterm CF and they are going to give him that opportunity. Blocking him with two players as an organization, is idiotic.

How the Marlins view Marisnick is irrelevant to me. If we couldn't discuss things that the Marlins would never do, we would never talk about anything because the Marlins would never consider half of the things mentioned on this board during the offseason.

Fact of the matter is, a lot of scouting reports view Marisnick as a better long-term fit in RF.

Your second sentence is "idiotic" to me. It's like saying that it would've been "idiotic" to acquire d'Arnaud because it would've blocked Brantly. Who cares? Talent is talent. Having a surplus of something (if it even gets to that because it's silly to think that every prospect is going to pan out) is great. It just means you have the flexibility to trade from an organizational strength to acquire organizational needs when the time comes.

Not acquiring a player because it blocks one of your prospects who might just become a bust one day is silly.

This is also assuming that the Marlins offer Stanton that 7/80 you want them to offer. If we can't talk about potential CF'ers because the Marlins already view Marisnick as their potential CF'er, we probably shouldn't talk about a Stanton extension either since the Marlins aren't extending him this offseason. For all we know, they'll trade him to Texas for the infielders they need.

For what it's worth, I do recall you saying you wanted Upton even after the firesale to Toronto/acquiring Marisnick. I don't understand why you'd be ok with Upton at 4/60, but not ok with giving up no assets/acquiring Bourjos (and Wells contract) for the next 2 years at ~30 million. It's the same thing financially for those two years. You like Upton because he's a long-term fit in CF who, despite questionable offensive #'s, is valued highly by WAR for other reasons. Bourjos is basically the same guy, only younger.

Just for fun, in the hypothetical scenario that the Marlins trade Stanton for Profar/Olt+ & trade Nolasco for Bourjos & Wells, what's the payroll for the next two years? Even with Wells making 21 million per year, would the overall payroll even exceed 50 million? The Marlins wouldn't be able to spend in the draft/international signings because they're paying their big league team a grand total of ~$50 million? If that's the case, we really need new ownership (as it is, it's probably rather obvious that we need new ownership already, but yeah).

[nny]

It'd basically be giving Bourjos 4/~47 (30m from wells, 500k/3m/5.5m/8m money), or about 12m per year average. Considering that other ~4ish WAR CFers are getting 15m max, it's not really that good of a deal (Especially since those guys have track records). The theory behind it is fine though, and getting Bourjos+prospects would make it better

[lou]

It'd basically be giving Bourjos 4/~47 (30m from wells, 500k/3m/5.5m/8m money), or about 12m per year average. Considering that other ~4ish WAR CFers are getting 15m max, it's not really that good of a deal (Especially since those guys have track records). The theory behind it is fine though, and getting Bourjos+prospects would make it better

Also, don't forget you get two years of a replacement level Wells to block the Marlins AA outfield as they'd never bench them with that salary. Good lord I am glad this is just Erick talking and not anything close to reality.

[Erick]

Also, don't forget you get two years of a replacement level Wells to block the Marlins AA outfield as they'd never bench them with that salary. Good lord I am glad this is just Erick talking and not anything close to reality.

Who's being blocked?
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None of our outfield prospects project to be ready in '13. With the exception of Yelich, there is probably no one even ready by '14. Who's blocked? I never said Wells would get playing time over young guys. I said he'd be a necessary evil to acquire a 3/4 WAR CF'er.

[Big Z]

Anibal to Tigers on 5/$80 according to reports..

Time for us to acquire Mr. Porcello.

[AdamRavs]

Anibal to Tigers on 5/$80 according to reports..

Time for us to acquire Mr. Porcello.

You make it sound like Porcello is an ace or some thing. He isn't any better than what we already have.

[dim]

It would be a nice move. It would be a chance for us to buy relatively low on a player with a good deal of upside (transitioning from the AL to the NL will improve his numbers).

Plus, we desperately need another SP. I'd be fine trading some middle level prospects to get Porcello and kick the likes of Hand/Leblanc/Sanabia out of the rotation.

[lou]

Detroit is contending and needs an outfielder, I would be shocked if they traded him for prospects

[emkayseven]

Porcello for Stanton!!!!!!!!

[tjfla]

Guys this Bourjos talk was when the LAA were willing to take a RP for him and before we made the Toronto trade. While we like Bourjos,there is no way we would trade anything of value for him. The FO sees the 2014 OF as Yelich/Marisnick/Stanton with Ruggiano as the 4th OF and could care less about the 2013 OF. There is 0% chance we would take Vernon Wells!!!

As for Porcello,while Detroit needs OF help like lou said they are looking for a young SP plus more for him. The reason why is because of cash and flexibilty.(They want a cheaper arm that they can send down to the minors if needed) Rotation-Verlander/Anibal/Scherzer/Fister/Porcello

No clue if they do actually trade him however they are calling around to see what they could get for him

[lou]

Smyly is ahead of Porcello for the rotation. They will trade Porcello. They have Smyly for 6, Anibal for 5, Fister for 3, Verlander and Max for 2, and a ton of payroll coming off books (V-Mart, Hunter, Benoit, Dotel) to give those two raises and still sign suitable free agents to sign/replace the Peraltas and Infantes of the world. They are in really good shape payroll wise.

I cannot see them trading Porcello for a prospect SP just for "flexibility" when they could really use a bat to help Dirks in LF. They are contending. Win now. Deal with 2015 in 2015. It's the opposite of Marlins philosophy.