What is the Appropriate Amount of Time for Marlins Fans to Vent?

[Mainge]

Cool. What's up?

LOL Michigan, amirite?

[emkayseven]

I haven't weighed in much because I think the ad hominem attacks are getting ridiculous but here it goes.

In a baseball sense, this trade is okay. We didn't get robbed, we didn't rob them. The Blue Jays probably won, if only because you can never know what you're going to get from prospects and the guys we traded are fairly predictable. I don't think that there is anyone on here who thinks we won the trade. There may be some who don't think we got enough talent back, but the bottom line is we are paying nothing. As someone said like 24 pages ago, if we had eaten more money (like with the Hanley trade) we'd have gotten more talent. I don't think anyone can deny those points.

The real issue is the perception. For a team that has consistently said they see themselves as an entertainment option moreso than a sports team they aren't exactly making themselves entertaining. I know we joke about what John Public thinks but that's more when you have a singular move, like cutting Cody Ross in a lost season or trading Dan Uggla when he had insane contract demands. This trade is not good for business, and like it or not, it solidifies the "Marlins Way" of doing things - try to be successful, and whether or not you are, cut costs tremendously after a few years. There is no denying that that is the culture of the Marlins. Over the last few years they'd made significant strides toward erasing that perception but in one fell swoop they erased that progress and set it back half a decade. Poor public perception = poor attendance = the ability to claim poor revenues (true or not) = justifiable payroll dumps, rinse, lather, repeat.

Casey Stern on MLBNetwork Radio today said it best. He said he cannot fathom why anyone would want to play here. He said that obviously this is a beach and bar town before a sports town, but with the Marlins' offseason last year and the Heat and the Dolphins making strides sports were starting to increase in popularity and profits. And he said short of the town, there is no reason you'd want to play for the Marlins. The players on the team don't want to be there. If you're a premier or even mid range free agent, why would you uproot your life to come to the Marlins with no guarantee of staying? Even with more money on the table, realistically, to a ballplayer, is there that much difference between, say, $65 and $70 million? We saw last year C.J. Wilson was willing to leave money on the table to go where he wanted. Knowing how the FO operates, hearing respected baseball lifers like Buehrle trash the team and say he was lied to, hearing how Stanton is pissed off and seeing that he doesn't want to be there, why on EARTH would you come to Miami? Unless you are a vet trying to get one last paycheck or a guy like Ryan Raburn trying desperately to win playing time, you wouldn't.

Also:

-Re: Escobar
-Re: Alvarez
Maybe he will ultimately suck. However, your comments about him are rather unfair, don't you think? "He just doesn't project to be anything more than a number 5?"

If you're just a numbers guy who doesn't care about context, he's still better than a "#5." This is a guy who, at the age of 22, has already pitched 251 innings in the big leagues. He has pitched in a hitters' park against great lineups in the AL East and has put up a 4.52 ERA during that time. Despite the mediocre strikeout totals, that is not absolutely terrible.

Just for funsies, two pitchers through age 22 season:

251 IP, 10-17, 4.52 ERA, 1.36 WHIP, 119 K/62 BB
243.1 IP, 15-17, 4.40 ERA, 1.40 WHIP, 159 K/95 BB

The first is Henderson Alvarez. The second is Chris Volstad.

[nny]

you'd probably enjoy this nny: http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/200...bip-calculator

Don't like it because it does not take power or speed into account. xBABIP has it's issues (Speed is taken into account only by SB; Power is only taken into account by HRs), but it at least tries in those things.

It also bugs me how he says he "doesn't like having to input AB and HRs" and likes to work in percentages...those are inputted for HR% (And AB for other %s), lol.

[Bobbob1313]

Just for funsies, two pitchers through age 22 season:

251 IP, 10-17, 4.52 ERA, 1.36 WHIP, 119 K/62 BB
243.1 IP, 15-17, 4.40 ERA, 1.40 WHIP, 159 K/95 BB

The first is Henderson Alvarez. The second is Chris Volstad.

One more:

334.1 IP, 14-28, 4.98 ERA, 1.39 WHIP, 219 K/82 BB

[Beef]

I agree with your first paragraph.

As to the second, I'd agree that while we do make fun of the "average fan" or the "general public", those fans are generally important for a franchise. I think in this area though, where the fans are generally pretty terrible, even when general public guy talks to his friends about the Marlins at the water cooler so he can have a conversation, he isn't going to the games. Because that's what happens here. If they reasonably build, perhaps somewhat slowly, over the next couple seasons, it won't bother me and is probably a better plan anyway. If the better plan works out, the people that were going to go if they are good, are going to go when they are good. Ya know?

As to the Casey Stern or CJ Wilson stuff, you may need to offer a greater incentive, but players will come. Maybe not all of them, maybe not even some that otherwise would have considered it, but they'll come if they like the offer.

CJ Wilson is definitely not a fair example because he just wanted to go home. Just like Stanton's may want to do, even had this offseason not happened this way. Josh Johnson said he has always talked about wanting to go to Southern California. There will be guys like that. Can't pretend Wilson did that because he didn't want to play here. He did that because he wanted to play somewhere specific.

As for the Volstad thing, you can probably also do that with pitchers that went on to have a good career.

[Bobbob1313]

That's what I did, beef.

[Erick]

Just for funsies, two pitchers through age 22 season:

251 IP, 10-17, 4.52 ERA, 1.36 WHIP, 119 K/62 BB
243.1 IP, 15-17, 4.40 ERA, 1.40 WHIP, 159 K/95 BB

The first is Henderson Alvarez. The second is Chris Volstad.

I'm not sure what this proves. I don't think anyone on here called Chris Volstad a "#5 at best" after 243.1 innings. We gave him a longer time than that before we all realized he sucked.

And numbers aside, Chris Volstad never threw mid-90's.

[Beef]

That's what I did, beef.

But I was already typing. I wanted to type a nice non-attack post.

[Bobbob1313]

Kind of out of character. That's bad for the brand.

[Beef]

Isn't my character a brand ruiner anyway?

[Bobbob1313]

Exactly. That post was bad for the brand, because it wasn't bad for the brand.

[Beef]

In the end, I bad for the branded.

[Bobbob1313]

End scene.

[Beef]

So who is Exhibit C?

[Bobbob1313]

Zack Greinke.