Giancarlo: "I Do Not Like This at All”

[nny]

I don't think they give us their actual reasons for most anything.

While I agree with this, you look at some moves and can't help but think "What was there long term plan for this? Because I can't see it"
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And, if I'm running the organization, I make them explain every decision whether it pans out or it doesn't. If their answers lead me to doubt that there is a plan or their reasoning doesn't hold up under scrutiny, I start to look for someone else. There are only 30 people in the world lucky enough to have this job. If you're not exceptional, find new work.

While I know you're talking about yourself, it does seem that it's Loria's team and there's no one above him to question things.

[Miamarlin21]

Just look at all the trades the Marlins have done since 2003:

Adrian Gonzalez, Ryan Snare and Will Smith for Urbina- Gonzo is awesome but without Urbina, maybe they didn't make the playoffs.

Denny Bautista for Jeff Conine- Bautista hasn't been anything amazing. Niner did well his second go-round.

Derrek Lee for Hee-Seop Choi and Mike Nannini- Lee did well for Chicago and Choi was horrible and Nannai never made it to the bigs with the Marlins.

Mark Redman for Bill Murphy and Michael Neu- Redman pitched until 2008. Murphy made the big leagues with Arizona and Neu never did anything for the Marlins.

Abraham Nunez for Rudy Seanez- Seanez pitched well during his second stint with the Marlins. Nunez sucked.

Blaine Neal for Ben Howard- Howard was OK, not a big trade in the long run.

Wilson Valez for Billy Koch- Valdez is still playing and Koch did OK for us.

Brad Penny, Hee-Seop Choi and Bill Murphy for Juan Encarnacion, Guilero Mota and Paul LoDuca- Toss up here. Mota did well for us and so did LoDuca. Encarnacion sucked.

Travis Chick for Ismael Valdez- Valdez wasn't that good for the two seasons he was with us. Chick bounced around but was nothing.

Mike Flannery and Yorman Bazardo for Ron Villone- Flannery never made it to the Majors and Bazardo has made the big leagues but hasn't been a big factor. Villone did pretty bad during his stint with the Marlins.

Josh Beckett, Mike Lowell, Guillero Mota for Hanley Ramirez, Jesus Delgado, Anibal Sanchez, Harvey Garcia- Trade worked out well for both teams until Hanley stopped hitting.

Luis Castillo for Scott Tyler and Travis Bowyer.- Luis was still good or decent. Bowyer never threw a pitch for the Marlins and Tyler got one day in the big leagues.

Carlos Delgado for Mike Jacobs, Yusmeiro Petit and Grand Psomas.- Delgado contributed for New York. Jacobs was good and fun to watch. Petit was ehhh and Pso never made it out of Double-A.

Juan Piere for Ricky Nolasco, Sergio Mitre and Renyel Pinto- Ricky is the leader in Marlins history in wins, Sergio had an OK 2007 and Pinto was good for a year.

Yusmeiro Petit for Jorge Julio- Petit sucks and Julio sucked even worse.

Jorge Julio for Byung-Hyun Kim- Yay?

Jason Vargas and Adam Bostick for Henry Owens and Matt Lindstom- Lindstrom wasn't bad but gave a lot of headaches. Owens was great before being shut down in May. He then was suspended and never heard from again. Vargas is a serviceable number four starter now. Bostick never made it to the big leagues.

Lincoln Holdzkom and Zach McCormack for Todd Wellemeyer- Wellemeyer was a bad reliever for the Marlins before being let go. Holdzkom nor McCormack made the big leagues.


Chris Resop for Kevin Gregg- Gregg was good as our closer for a couple of years. Resop did well for the Pirates last year.

Randy Messenger for Armando Benitez- Messenger is now in Japan and Benitez was bad.

Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis for Andrew Miller, Cameron Maybin, Mike Rabelo, Burke Badenhop and Dallas Trahern- The Hopper was sadly the best from that group.

Josh Willingham and Scott Olsen for Emilio Bonifacio, Jake Smolinksi and PJ Dean- Boni was a great super utility man. Smolinski had a good 2012 and Dean never threw a pitch for the Marlins.

Jason Stokes for John Baker- Baker did well during his tenure with the Marlins before getting an arm injury.

Hector Correra for Ronny Paulino- Paulino did OK splitting time with John Baker

Robert Andino for Hayden Penn- Andino has been a decent middle infielder. Penn sucked.

Logan Kensing for Kyle Gunderson- Kensing is a minor leaguer now and Gunderson was released in 2011.

Mike Jacobs for Juan Carlos Oviedo- Oviedo pitched well for us and Jacobs sucked for KC and was last with Arizona.

Jorge Cantu for Evan Reed and Omar Poveda- Poveda made one start for the Marlins and Evan Reed has made one appearance so far.

Dan Uggla for Omar Infante and Mike Dunn- Dunn was great his first year for us and Infante was awesome. Dan got paid and was an "All-Star" in 2012.

Jeremy Hermida for Hunter Jones and Jose Alvarez- Jones made three appearances for the Marlins. Alvarez is now with Detroit and has yet to make the big leagues.

Andrew Miller for Dustin Richardson- Miller has somewhat found a home in the Red Sox bullpen. Richardson sucked.

Cameron Maybin for Ryan Webb and Edward Mujica- Maybin had one good year but sucked in 2012. Webb and Mujica were pretty good for the Marlins.

John Baker for Wade LeBlanc- LeBlanc did well out of the bullpen during his half-season with the Marlins in 2012.

Burke Badenhop for Jake Jeffries- Jeffries spend 2012 in Double-A Jacksonville and probably won't make the big leagues.

Chris Volstad for Carlos Zambrano- Big Z was good in May and June but fell off after that. Volstad, well, yeah.

(some might have been out of chronological order and I might have forgotten one or two trades.)

[oakelmpine]

It's also super douchey for people like me or you to say at the time that they got miller and maybin, 2 top of the top prospects, so great and then to criticize other folks for not seeing into the future

I didn't say one way or the other when they got them. I didn't know enough then and today don't know enough. I'm just a fan.

But they are supposedly experts and are paid to know enough and be able to at least hit on a draft pick now and then. Once in 10 years is just not good enough.

Hell I could have done a better job playing darts blind than they have in the 1st and 2nd round of the draft. They've had what - over 25 picks in that time frame and only came up with one guy, Stanton. That isn't just bad that is so bad it looks like they were trying to be bad on purpose. I swear as little as I know I bet I would have done a better job, that is how bad they have done.
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There is no excuse for the Marlins not buying out Miguel Cabrera's contract. Because of that shortsightedness, they were forced to trade Miguel Cabrera because they couldn't afford him long term. That being said, they acquired 2 of the top 5 prospects in baseball for him, along with a few other players that many believed could be on a big league squad.

No one here is making excuses for them, but Miller and Maybin were rated as high as you can get.
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What in holy hell are you talking about? This has nothing to do with our people and there is no proof one way or the other if Kemp was ever offered. Why would our people lie about that anyway? It makes them look bad.

People feel this way about them. I would bet if you asked 100 "Marlins fans" if they felt the organization would ask another organization to lie for them, 90% would answer they think they would do it.

That is how untrustworthy this ownership feels to its fans. That is not a good thing, no matter what Loria, or you or me feel about it. I think you guys really misjudge how badly people feel towards Marlins management right now. Maybe by April cooler heads will prevail but right now people are pretty steamed.

I had a lady in front of me the other day at sporting goods store try to stop someone infront of her from buying a Marlins cap. Then others in line also encouraged the guy to not buy the cap. And it worked. I don't think that was an isolated event either.

[HUGG]

that poor guy's son is gonna be heartbroken

what a bunch of dicks

[oakelmpine]

I think, for the most part, his posts are well thought out and reasoned. I don't agree with some things he says but he deserves a real response.

He's not like tr305 or kingzfan

Thank you. I maybe not was well educated as some here in baseball, but I am not a tin foil hat guy either.

I don't follow sabermetrics, or any other things, as I have a very busy career and homelife with a wife, grown children and some grandchildren. I'm just an ordinary fan.

As Seinfeld said, "There's nothing wrong with that".
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I think they can be held accountable, but pretty douchey or hypocritical for one of us to say we like a deal at one point and later say what a stupid idiot for liking that deal!

Also, we're saying it was a majority of general managers that would have loved to get those two guys, not just ba or fangraphs

So you conducted a survey of them ? Is it published somewhere ?

[Miamarlin21]

MIAMI -- The Marlins are not entertaining trades for power-hitting star Giancarlo Stanton, whether he likes it or not.

In fact, just the opposite. Marlins president of baseball operations Larry Beinfest said by phone, "We'd love to add some power."

The Marlins' No. 1 priority now appears to be to find a hitter to protect Stanton in their re-done lineup, whether that new soothes Stanton or not. Right now, the just-acquired Yunel Escobar looks like their starting third baseman and No. 5 hitter, the man who will hit right behind Stanton. And the longtime shortstop Escobar seems more out of place in the lineup than he does at third.

"We went someone to hit behind him, someone to offer more power," Beinfest said. "Giancarlo represents the power on our team."

Beinfest wouldn't address whether Stanton might be traded, but other people with Marlins connections say he absolutely will be a Marlin in 2013. And executives from other teams who have inquired agree they see zero evidence Stanton might be moved.

The Yankees, Orioles, Phillies, Red Sox and Cubs are among teams inquiring about Stanton, according to Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe. Stanton, who is 23 and hit 37 homers last season, only made $480,000 in 2012 and is due for only a token raise as he isn't yet eligible for arbitration, so there's no financial incentive to trade him. Besides, the Marlins already offloaded $166 million in their blockbuster deal with Toronto that's been characterized as a fire sale.

Of course, Stanton might not be thrilled by this news considering his reaction to the startling 12-player trade that sent stars Jose Reyes, Mark Buehrle and Josh Johnson to Toronto for a mix of mostly prospects and very young players. Stanton tweeted at the time, "Alright, I'm pissed off!!! Plan & Simple," the night of the blockbuster that changed the Marlins' direction.

Beinfest said that while new manager Mike Redmond checked in earlier with Stanton, they are waiting to talk to their marquee star. "We're going to let the dust settle," Beinfest said.

The GM realizes it may take quite a bit of time for things to settle. He suggested he hoped Stanton would feel better once he saw the talent on the field in spring training. So that's plenty of settling.

While south Floridians were furious over the trade, baseball people liked some of the young talent that went back to the Marlins in the deal, especially left-hander Justin Nicolino, outfielder Jake Marisnick and shortstop Adeiny Hechavarria.

Beinfest makes no promises about immediate results. "We're going to have to wait for our farm system," he said. "It's a lot different than it was two weeks ago."

They may have to wait for a better response in Miami, too, as an initial Miami Herald poll suggested club owner Jeffrey Loria is only slightly more popular than reviled Cuban dictator Fidel Castro, the fellow fired Marlins manager Ozzie Guillen praised in one of the early lowlights of a difficult season.

"It's been a real whirlwind year," Beinfest said, finding the right euphemism.

He doesn't sugarcoat things, though. "It's not going to be easy," he said. "We're not going to put any expectations on it ... the reality is, we haven't played good for a couple years."

He does have hope, though. Beinfest pointed to several young players he liked, including catcher Rob Brantly and several of their young pitchers (Henderson Alvarez, Nate Eovaldi and Jacob Turner) as their best hope for the future. Reality is, the Marlins have done better when they haven't bought expensive players but rather pared down to barebones. "We've done this before," he said. "It worked out for us, and hopefully it will again."

Judging by the negative response down here, it'd had better.

"It's been tough in the marketplace. It's been tough on Jeffrey," Beinfest said.

And the Marlins aren't about to make it even tougher by trading their one remaining marquee player.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jo...going-anywhere

[oakelmpine]

Shouldn't he always be measured against his peers?

Going by that standard he is at best mediocre.

But because of the Marlins past (and it appears present) budget constrictions, isn't it imperative for the Marlins GM to be better than his peers ? We have handicaps that others didn't and apparently still don't have.
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doesn't that kind of become bad luck to an extent?

Missing on every draft pick in the 1st and 2nd round with the exception of one guy, Stanton, for nearly 10 years is not bad luck.

It just means you are bad at your job. Especially since the Marlins, because of financial reasons really needed to hit on some of those picks. They didn't, and then flopped on the Cabrera trade, it was a double whammy that produced losing seasons for the Marlins, and was also one of the reasons they needed to go out and get splashy over-priced free agents last year. Had they done a good job in drafting they could have had homegrown talent leading the way last year, and had a reasonable budget last year, and probably more of a chance at a larger one this year. Instead, Loria said "Fuck it, clear house".

[Mainge]

But because of the Marlins past (and it appears present) budget constrictions, isn't it imperative for the Marlins GM to be better than his peers ? We have handicaps that others didn't and apparently still don't have.

Given our constraints, yes.

[Erick]

So you conducted a survey of them ? Is it published somewhere ?

You should conduct a survey of those 100 hypothetical fans you just made up in your previous post before this one.
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Missing on every draft pick in the 1st and 2nd round with the exception of one guy, Stanton, for nearly 10 years is not bad luck.

It just means you are bad at your job. Especially since the Marlins, because of financial reasons really needed to hit on some of those picks. They didn't, and then flopped on the Cabrera trade, it was a double whammy that produced losing seasons for the Marlins, and was also one of the reasons they needed to go out and get splashy over-priced free agents last year. Had they done a good job in drafting they could have had homegrown talent leading the way last year, and had a reasonable budget last year, and probably more of a chance at a larger one this year. Instead, Loria said "Fuck it, clear house".

I was talking only about the Miguel Cabrera trade, not the draft picks.

And while I will not defend their drafting because it's really not worth defending, there are more than two rounds in the MLB Draft.

[Beef]

Oakelmpine,sour lemon for lunch?

[HUGG]

Based on what most people think of Loria/Samson at this point, does it really even matter if we got rid of Beinfest? Or is this some thing where Loria will get rid of him and suddenly decide he doesn't want input on baseball decisions and hires someone who won't just do whatever he wants them to do.

If you believe Loria is what people says he is, then replacing Beinfest is pointless and accomplishes nothing. I feel like this is one of those issues where people contradict themselves.

[Party]

I don't know about Baseball America subscriptions, but I feel like there are a number of posters here who would be better qualified than most of the GM's in the league.

I do not support this statement at all. Maybe a few, but absolutely not most. The role of a GM is so much more complex than what we or anyone in the media ever discusses.

[Mainge]

More complex how?

[Omar]

I didn't say one way or the other when they got them. I didn't know enough then and today don't know enough. I'm just a fan.

Not to pick on you specifically, but I can't properly express how much I hate this logical train. You're not just a fan - you're the customer. You're the boss. Don't resign yourself to thinking you're a bumpkin who isn't paid to do this for a living so you don't know.

You're contributing money to their salaries, for goodness' sake.

[Beef]

He doesn't - he's been verbally raping people since he signed up

Also, on the continuum of what people know, there's got to be a middle ground between bumpkin and know-it-all