2023-2024 Offseason Thread

[fish16]

And keeps Marlins payroll under $100m for opening day 2024 unless he hits nearly all the incentives.


Without any other signings, this is roughly current status:

Royals +$11m payroll
Twins and White Sox +$21m
Mariners +$34m
Diamondbacks +$35m
Rockies - the Rockies!!!!!! - +$37m (15th overall in payroll)
League Median +$56m


Marlins are going to be 21-23rd in overall payroll, and that would rocket to 18th if they spent $1 more than the Twins and White Sox. The Royals, White Sox, and Rockies have no chance on the season here but are doing things. Especially the Royals who signed a lot of guys which is nice for their fans to have some hope.

The only teams that have a bigger gripe are Baltimore and Tampa, as Baltimore is about the same as Miami and Tampa is less, and they are both better on paper. Their ownership sucks too, but Baltimore is going through a sale in their defense and will likely be ludicrous next year.

Bare minimum, they should be spending $21-35m more on 1 year deals to replace the bottom 2-4 guys on the roster, which is Garcia and Hoeing right now, and what's infuriating is, they could do that for probably $7-8m given what Rosario/Davis/Lorenzen are signing for. There is a good chance adding $30m in payroll would make the Marlins a wild card favorite, much how SD and SF have risen to the top with their larger moves.

It's pathetic Fish16. Don't make excuses for these dingbats. This offseason is a big and bold F grade and it's basically all financially motivated.

not sure what's so hard to get. They've had an absurdly pathetic offseason. That doesnt make signing a mediocre pitcher for way too much money a week before opening day a good idea. Also not sure why you keep bringing up rosario. He's not a good player. They also have like 5 different SS options, most of which have a higher ceiling than him. There is a serious gripe about not adding a depth SP and not adding an OF like Pham. Bitching about players as mediocre as lorenzon and Rosario is a waste of time. Those arent moving the needle.

[fish16]

It kind of is, because it's getting 3 of those types of guys. And you know damn well guys have down years and Rosario will likely hit again. And if you don't like him, Tommy Pham. Adam Duvall. Pick your poison here. There were options. Brandon Belt is still out there if you want to play Burger at 3B. Lorenzen/Clevinger will be built up in 2 weeks. That's a nothing burger.


But we're getting Garcia, DLC/Edwards/Dane/Mancini or Brujan, and Hoeing/Guitterez/Faucher/McCaughan versus spending about $10-12m for three solid veterans all projecting around a 1.5 WAR average.

Hit again? Rosario is a career 95 WRC+ with bad defense over 839 games and 3367 at bats for his career. He's not a good player. They did good getting anderson on a bounce back at SS and seeing what Brujan, Edwards, and Berti can do behind him.

I've already said they should have signed an OF because DLC is terrible. And clevinger and lorenzen will absolutely not be built up in 2 weeks to be starting at the major league level. Cabrera and garrett should be back before april is up if not much sooner. this is a nothing burger for the beginning of the season. We will have Luzardo, Puk, Rogers, Weathers, and insert 5th guy in here for a few weeks, if we will even need a 5th guy at all, and then Cabrera, Garrett, and given that we havent heard a thing about eury, probably him as well before long. If eury is out for the year, the season is done anyways.

The big picture is, they should have signed an OF and a depth SP. That is clear. But that wont be the difference between contention and a lost year. The health of Jazz, Eury, Cabrera, Luzardo, Puk, Meyer, Sixto etc. will be. If healthy, this team will be decent, if not, we will be looking ahead to sandy coming back and the innings limits increasing. These moves in the margins help, but they wont make or break this year.

[fish16]

a guy i would have liked is jake odorizzi. he's coming off an injury but signed a minor league deal with the rays. He is a guy who could have potentially filled some innings in august and september for cheap.

[lou]

not sure what's so hard to get. They've had an absurdly pathetic offseason. That doesnt make signing a mediocre pitcher for way too much money a week before opening day a good idea. Also not sure why you keep bringing up rosario. He's not a good player. They also have like 5 different SS options, most of which have a higher ceiling than him. There is a serious gripe about not adding a depth SP and not adding an OF like Pham. Bitching about players as mediocre as lorenzon and Rosario is a waste of time. Those arent moving the needle.

It's not way too much money. It's irrelevant money. If you can't accept this, you don't get the financial aspect of free agency these days.

Are you a FO plant? You wanted Pham 2 days ago. Also I'd play Rosario at 2B/LF.

[lou]

a guy i would have liked is jake odorizzi. he's coming off an injury but signed a minor league deal with the rays. He is a guy who could have potentially filled some innings in august and september for cheap.

They signed 5 guys like this. They need a MLB quality 5th SP, and that's before Cabrera/Garrett/Eury issues.

You're out of your mind if seasoned pros like Lorenzen and Clevinger aren't game ready by April 10th. Look at a calendar and the schedule. That's when they'd need a 5th SP a 2nd time. Likely, they'd throw 1-2 innings out of the pen to build up before then. These guys are fine 1-2 times through the lineup throwing max effort versus being stretched into a 3rd time through the lineup.

[fish16]

It's not way too much money. It's irrelevant money. If you can't accept this, you don't get the financial aspect of free agency these days.

Are you a FO plant? You wanted Pham 2 days ago. Also I'd play Rosario at 2B/LF.

The marlins shouldnt be building their fucking team through free agency these days. It's the least efficient way by far to spend money. Even more so for small payroll teams. they have payroll constraints, that's clear. Hoping that changes doesnt change reality. Lorenzon isnt making a difference, but that money could make a difference by adding a guy in a trade for the rest of the year, if not longer like Bell and Burger, come July when you have 3-4 months longer of a sample size of what this team needs. They have enough pitching for the first few months, and if another guy gets hurt, this team isnt going to compete anyways and lorenzon doesnt change that reality.

You could play rosario at whatever position you'd like, it doesnt change the fact that he cant hit. What does rosario bring that they dont already have? Anderson is a much better version of what rosario is. Low OBP, anderson has better power, better defensively for his career at SS, Rosario also has a -34 UZR/150 in his very brief outfield experience. That would pair great with his below average bat.

Also, i'm pretty clearly saying in my post that they should have, and still can, add pham. that's an addition that would actually make a difference potentially.

[lou]

The marlins shouldnt be building their fucking team through free agency these days. It's the least efficient way by far to spend money. Even more so for small payroll teams. they have payroll constraints, that's clear. Hoping that changes doesnt change reality. Lorenzon isnt making a difference, but that money could make a difference by adding a guy in a trade for the rest of the year, if not longer like Bell and Burger, come July when you have 3-4 months longer of a sample size of what this team needs. They have enough pitching for the first few months, and if another guy gets hurt, this team isnt going to compete anyways and lorenzon doesnt change that reality.

You could play rosario at whatever position you'd like, it doesnt change the fact that he cant hit. What does rosario bring that they dont already have? Anderson is a much better version of what rosario is. Low OBP, anderson has better power, better defensively for his career at SS, Rosario also has a -34 UZR/150 in his very brief outfield experience. That would pair great with his below average bat.

Also, i'm pretty clearly saying in my post that they should have, and still can, add pham. that's an addition that would actually make a difference potentially.

You're still missing the point.

This isn't building a team with free agency with three guys making $10-12m bucks. WTF are you talking about? These are role players that come off payroll after 1 year. There is plenty of money - and I do mean plenty - for them to have signed three free agents for cumulatively $12m, and that's based on actual deals we've seen not conjecture, that would make a huge difference. Lorenzen/Clevinger, Davis, and pick your poison of Pham/Duvall/Rosario/Taylor/Urshela is a HUGE upgrade for this team. Over Garcia, DLC/Brujan, and Hoeing/Cronin????? This doesn't have an impact on trade deadline moves, and frankly, who knows if they even get there. Payroll is abysmally low. There is plenty of maneuvering room here at bottom 10 budgets.

They clearly don't have enough pitching???? Hoeing is going to start game 2-5. #4 makes the most sense, but I digress. That shouldn't be happening week 1 with a bottom 24th payroll even with their injuries. It's absurd. It's a failure, unless of course Guitterez or Sixto or Yonny or Faucher or whoever just throws 110 epic innings out of nowhere then the jokes on all of us and Bendix is a genius. For these prices - and this is the point - they should be raising the floor as you can always pivot in these AAA guys are better in May and the FA costs are so low its worth the risk. This isn't a 2/$17m like Segura we're talking about here where you have to eat Bell to move him. If you cut Lorenzen halfway through the year, you are burning $2+ m bucks. Who cares? $2m is nothing in the league. Payroll is laughable with or without this? You tried. It was a good idea (which it would be despite your comments, Lorenzen and Clevinger are fine projectable 100-120 innings guys).

They simply aren't trying. They are being cheap and setting up the team to fail so they can move Luzardo, Scott, and friends at the deadline, recoup another $10-15m (and more if Arraez is in that too which he might be), and get younger for next year with an eye of the immaculate maybe everyone is healthy staff of:

Sandy, Eury, Garrett, Cabrera, Puk
Max, Weathers, Soriano, Rogers
Nardi, Bender, Sixto, _______

That's a great plan with Arraez, Jazz, Burger, two top 100 bat prospects for Luzardo, Sanchez, and they'll get some other cheap contributors, plus have money for some real dudes because payroll will be low low low next year. Adames? Jansen?

This is what they are doing. They are tanking. It's a pig with lipstick to save some media face, they reluctantly had to sign Anderson as he's big enough name for SS as they had to do something, and circling 2025.


So pray the arms will finally all be healthy next year and maybe, just maybe, this can stops getting kicked. It's an F offseason, and Lorenzen ain't fixing that, but it would at least show they care a little.

[fish16]

You're still missing the point.

This isn't building a team with free agency with three guys making $10-12m bucks. WTF are you talking about? These are role players that come off payroll after 1 year. There is plenty of money - and I do mean plenty - for them to have signed three free agents for cumulatively $12m, and that's based on actual deals we've seen not conjecture, that would make a huge difference. Lorenzen/Clevinger, Davis, and pick your poison of Pham/Duvall/Rosario/Taylor/Urshela is a HUGE upgrade for this team. Over Garcia, DLC/Brujan, and Hoeing/Cronin????? This doesn't have an impact on trade deadline moves, and frankly, who knows if they even get there. Payroll is abysmally low. There is plenty of maneuvering room here at bottom 10 budgets.

They clearly don't have enough pitching???? Hoeing is going to start game 2-5. #4 makes the most sense, but I digress. That shouldn't be happening week 1 with a bottom 24th payroll even with their injuries. It's absurd. It's a failure, unless of course Guitterez or Sixto or Yonny or Faucher or whoever just throws 110 epic innings out of nowhere then the jokes on all of us and Bendix is a genius. For these prices - and this is the point - they should be raising the floor as you can always pivot in these AAA guys are better in May and the FA costs are so low its worth the risk. This isn't a 2/$17m like Segura we're talking about here where you have to eat Bell to move him. If you cut Lorenzen halfway through the year, you are burning $2+ m bucks. Who cares? $2m is nothing in the league. Payroll is laughable with or without this? You tried. It was a good idea (which it would be despite your comments, Lorenzen and Clevinger are fine projectable 100-120 innings guys).

They simply aren't trying. They are being cheap and setting up the team to fail so they can move Luzardo, Scott, and friends at the deadline, recoup another $10-15m (and more if Arraez is in that too which he might be), and get younger for next year with an eye of the immaculate maybe everyone is healthy staff of:

Sandy, Eury, Garrett, Cabrera, Puk
Max, Weathers, Soriano, Rogers
Nardi, Bender, Sixto, _______

That's a great plan with Arraez, Jazz, Burger, two top 100 bat prospects for Luzardo, Sanchez, and they'll get some other cheap contributors, plus have money for some real dudes because payroll will be low low low next year. Adames? Jansen?

This is what they are doing. They are tanking. It's a pig with lipstick to save some media face, they reluctantly had to sign Anderson as he's big enough name for SS as they had to do something, and circling 2025.


So pray the arms will finally all be healthy next year and maybe, just maybe, this can stops getting kicked. It's an F offseason, and Lorenzen ain't fixing that, but it would at least show they care a little.

Well, first off, with Sandy out, they probably should be looking forward to next year. Next year and 2026 is realistically the window for contention the second sandy had surgery. And again, i'm not disagreeing with you that they should be spending money, but they should be spending it from within. it is inexcusable that they have not locked up a single guy on this roster. They are costing themselves millions down the line, or costing themselves the player itself once they get too far past the point of no return. That is the big issue with the payroll, not that they are not making moves that don't move the needle.

Also, lorenzon wont be ready until the 2nd or 3rd week of the year, at which point we should have cabrera, garrett, and possibly even eury back, making our rotation one of the best in the league even without sandy. We're talking about maybe 1 start, and you keep saying it's Hoeing for some reason, when it's likely going to be Soriano who has impressed. Is 1, maybe 2 starts worth 8-9 million for a mediocre pitcher who isnt stretched out? He's not worth the money. He's just not that good, which is my major point. And he's not a major improvement over what we have. You act like lorenzon is a major innings eater when he himself has never pitched more than 113 innings prior to last year, and he completely broke down down the stretch.

With all that said, this opening day roster is better than last years. We have Bell over Cooper, Betancourt over Stallings which is sadly a pretty decent upgrade, Anderson over wendle which could turn out to be an enormous upgrade, Burger over Segura, and Nick Gordon hopefully over Garcia. I think this roster is deeper than last years was, and as long as the injuries to the pitchers arent apocalyptic, they should at least hang around for a while if not till the end of the year, Losing Soler obviously hurts, but he was only 1.9 WAR himself because of his negative defensive value. i like the pitching depth more than last years provided they go out and get some cheap innings from someone at the deadline. Plus you have some legitimate wild cards with Meyer, Sixto, and Weathers. Granted, they were also incredibly lucky last year, so it's unlikely they are going to see that repeat itself.

[Nick]

Well, first off, with Sandy out, they probably should be looking forward to next year. Next year and 2026 is realistically the window for contention the second sandy had surgery. And again, i'm not disagreeing with you that they should be spending money, but they should be spending it from within. it is inexcusable that they have not locked up a single guy on this roster. They are costing themselves millions down the line, or costing themselves the player itself once they get too far past the point of no return. That is the big issue with the payroll, not that they are not making moves that don't move the needle.

Also, lorenzon wont be ready until the 2nd or 3rd week of the year, at which point we should have cabrera, garrett, and possibly even eury back, making our rotation one of the best in the league even without sandy. We're talking about maybe 1 start, and you keep saying it's Hoeing for some reason, when it's likely going to be Soriano who has impressed. Is 1, maybe 2 starts worth 8-9 million for a mediocre pitcher who isnt stretched out? He's not worth the money. He's just not that good, which is my major point. And he's not a major improvement over what we have. You act like lorenzon is a major innings eater when he himself has never pitched more than 113 innings prior to last year, and he completely broke down down the stretch.

With all that said, this opening day roster is better than last years. We have Bell over Cooper, Betancourt over Stallings which is sadly a pretty decent upgrade, Anderson over wendle which could turn out to be an enormous upgrade, Burger over Segura, and Nick Gordon hopefully over Garcia. I think this roster is deeper than last years was, and as long as the injuries to the pitchers arent apocalyptic, i like the pitching depth more than last years provided they go out and get some cheap innings from someone at the deadline. Plus you have some legitimate wild cards with Meyer, Sixto, and Weathers.

I don't understand how you could've watched last season, and what's happened this Spring, and be so supremely confident that:

1. All 3 of our stud pitchers will be back at the earliest possible dates. I mean Cabrera had what seemed to be a very minor injury last year, and ended up missing months from it.
2. None of our healthy pitchers will sustain injuries in that time.

Boggles my mind.

[fish16]

I don't understand how you could've watched last season, and what's happened this Spring, and be so supremely confident that:

1. All 3 of our stud pitchers will be back at the earliest possible dates. I mean Cabrera had what seemed to be a very minor injury last year, and ended up missing months from it.
2. None of our healthy pitchers will sustain injuries in that time.

Boggles my mind.

They have replacements for each of those guys. Even with injuries, we still are looking at Luzardo, Puk, Rogers, and Weathers, with the 5th spot being between Soriano, Gutierrez, maybe they consider meyer for a few starts.

garrett off of injury right now is more built up than Lorenzen is. Garrett threw 3 innings a few days ago. He will probably get a spring training game and then a rehab start.and be back before too long based on reports. Cabrera is throwing. eury is a complete question mark, but if he is out long term, we're fucked anyways. i'd rather see those innings eaten by internal young options than spend 10 million on a mediocre veteran who isnt particularly good. My question to you- is Lorenzen and 10 million better than Soriano or Hoeing early and then likely Meyer and Sixto as you get later in the year. Give me the young guys, especially if eury is a major injury and this season is fucked anyways.

If we're talking a jordan montgomery level upgrade i'd be all for it. But michael lorenzen just isnt that good of a player to be bitching this fucking much.

[Nick]

They have replacements for each of those guys. Even with injuries, we still are looking at Luzardo, Puk, Rogers, and Weathers, with the 5th spot being between Soriano, Gutierrez, maybe they consider meyer for a few starts.

garrett off of injury right now is more built up than Lorenzen is. Garrett threw 3 innings a few days ago. He will probably get a spring training game and then a rehab start.and be back before too long based on reports. Cabrera is throwing. eury is a complete question mark, but if he is out long term, we're fucked anyways. i'd rather see those innings eaten by internal young options than spend 10 million on a mediocre veteran who isnt particularly good. My question to you- is Lorenzen and 10 million better than Soriano or Hoeing early and then likely Meyer and Sixto as you get later in the year. Give me the young guys, especially if eury is a major injury and this season is fucked anyways.

If we're talking a jordan montgomery level upgrade i'd be all for it. But michael lorenzen just isnt that good of a player to be bitching this fucking much.

Lorenzen threw 70 pitches a couple of days ago. None of the guys you've mentioned have gone more than 2 innings in spring training. Offer Lorenzen 5.5 with incentives to get you up to $8 million, he takes it, it's more money, who knows how long his career will be after this year, he'd take the money. Also, I don't know where you found info on his incentives, I can't find anything.

And yes Lorenzen at 8-10 million is better than Soriano and Hoeing, it's not my fucking money. Bruce's payroll should be a lot higher than an additional $8-10 million. Hoeing is a AAAA pitcher, Soriano I like, but we've simply never seen him as more than a 2 inning pitcher at the big leagues.

[fish16]

Lorenzen threw 70 pitches a couple of days ago. None of the guys you've mentioned have gone more than 2 innings in spring training. Offer Lorenzen 5.5 with incentives to get you up to $8 million, he takes it, it's more money, who knows how long his career will be after this year, he'd take the money. Also, I don't know where you found info on his incentives, I can't find anything.

And yes Lorenzen at 8-10 million is better than Soriano and Hoeing, it's not my fucking money. Bruce's payroll should be a lot higher than an additional $8-10 million. Hoeing is a AAAA pitcher, Soriano I like, but we've simply never seen him as more than a 2 inning pitcher at the big leagues.

Soriano pitched at least 3 innings 8 separate times last year. The only reason it wasnt more was because he was pitching well and they started using him as more than just a long reliever. In those 8 outings, he allowed earned runs of: 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 3, 0. He's also a starting pitcher by trade. He was a starter in the minors until 2022.

I'm fine with thinking we need another pitcher, lorenzen just isnt very good. Paying him 10 million is dumb, we can revisit this in a few months when we see how he does in texas.

[lou]

Well, first off, with Sandy out, they probably should be looking forward to next year. Next year and 2026 is realistically the window for contention the second sandy had surgery. And again, i'm not disagreeing with you that they should be spending money, but they should be spending it from within. it is inexcusable that they have not locked up a single guy on this roster. They are costing themselves millions down the line, or costing themselves the player itself once they get too far past the point of no return. That is the big issue with the payroll, not that they are not making moves that don't move the needle.

I think Nick covered and closed the other points, but now this.

It's because they are going to sell everything at this deadline and go into 2025 with the clean books. They do not care about 2024. It's just reading the writing on the wall - Luzardo is one of the best extension candidates in baseball so that speaks volumes of doing nothing, they are not making nominal role player/bench signings they can afford, they are going to keep Garcia just because who cares maybe he starts hitting we have to pay him anyways, etc., etc. All the decisions are, they don't believe they can get enough hitting, Bruce isn't going to spend, so they'll have to scorch earth eventually.

This costs roughly $61m 2025 (includes Garcia dead money):

C ___, Fortes
1B Burger
2B Edwards
SS _____, _____
3B _____, Brujan
LF Gordon/DLC
CF Jazz, _____
RF Sanchez

SP Sandy, Eury, Garrett, Cabrera, Puk
RHP ____, Meyer, Bender, Sixto, Soriano
LHP Nardi, Weathers, Rogers

With Luzardo, Arraez, Scott, and the throw-ins (Berti, Bell, Anderson, Chargois, Bethancourt, etc.) they can trade. So call it three enormous names to fill 50% of the blank lines above, as well as adding middle-tier system depth. They have some interesting names that can fill other spots there too - Banfield, Johnston, Berry, Amaya, Cappe, Mesa Jr., Myers, Guitterez, Simpson, etc.

This is what their eyes are on. That (epic) staff healthy with both a bat infusion with youth via trade and money for a legitimately stud as payroll is under $65m needing 3 players, and 1-2 of those may be backups. That team could be filthy. Why mess it up by you know, winning games in 2024 when you must trade Luzardo and Arraez to make it happen? They ain't paying those two $25m next year when they can get 3 huge prospects (Mayo primary piece for Luzardo? Teel + Mayer for Arraez, Scott, and others parts?) and $25m to spend on say.... Willy Adames.

Drop in Teel, Adames, Mayer, and Mayo into that IF, and that's a $90m team needing a platoon CF who can hit left handers and luxury RHP RP. That's the stuff Bendix is nerding out over. This plan makes sense.


My problem then is, you can still do this at the deadline or offseason and why not sign 3-4 guys now for $15-20m this year to be better? Who you could also trade if all works out? Establish culture. Show your fans you care? Run a business with a longterm vision? But they are cheap to a fault.

It sucks being stuck with this franchise. Hopefully Bezos buys the team.

[fish16]

that team looks thoroughly unimpressive even if you add 3 unproven top prospects, which you are not going to get mayer and teel for 1 year of arraez and free agent to be scott and mayo is likely untouchable. 25 million per year on a long term deal for the early to mid 30's for Adames also sounds like a pretty awful idea as well.

[Namaste]

lou other than Bezos relocating to Miami for tax purposes has there been any rumblings of him buying the team?