2022-2023 Offseason Thread

[fish16]

You are not smarter than fangraphs and baseball savant. You are missing the forest in the trees with Rosario, but it's OK. It's just a recurring theme this offseason. Let's love the 58th best projected bat in the league, but hate the 65th. Also there is this, he's one of the better base runners in baseball - https://blogs.fangraphs.com/amed-ros...t-stop-running. Another fun quote from that article "An Amed Rosario with league-average swing and groundball rates would be a star." Basically what I just said. Bet on tools with high floors at 27 years old. The floor is fine, the ceiling is how you win and gain value as a small market club. I think you just like to argue when the predominant wisdom of the entire industry is against you.

But you're right about the bold and it has nothing to do with the Mets, Braves, and Phillies. No out side shot at all about competing this year, it's whimsical to project this team to 88 games. So I guess we're just circling 2024 and keep moving the goal posts. Let's keep moving them every light and keep being gaslighted by the front office? Sounds fun.

Again, PROJECTIONS. Projections that are consistently wrong that you never take any actual review of after the fact. Lets do so now: Last year, they had jazz at 1 WAr over a full season. he had 2.6 in 1/3 of a season. They had Stallings at 2.0. He was -.6. Lewin they had at 1, he was -.7. Rojas they had at 2.4, they were at double his actual production, he finished at 1.2. Anderson was at 2. He actually finished with .5. Aguilar they had at 1.2. He finished with -.1. Avisail garcia they had at 1.6. He was -.6. These arent close, and you never take any actual ownership of that fact after the fact, but you treat them as gospel nonetheless every fucking offseason, and it's why your posts are nonsensical a lot of the time.

Baseball is the most inconsistent and hardest sport to project players on a year to year basis. Football players, basketball players, and for the most part hockey players are consistent on a year to year basis in their prime. If you wanted to use models as the end all be all in those sports, fine, but blindly following computer projections in baseball with 0 room for anyone who calls you out on that fact is ridiculous. and it's why you are consistently advocating for a marlins team with limited payroll abilities to sign mediocre players to 15 million a year contracts. Again, see didi gregorious.

Not sure how many times we have to go over this, but im not saying rosario is a bad player, im saying your hope that they give him 15 million for 5 years is a horrendous value for the actual player he is, specifically for a team with the marlins payroll limitations. That doesnt mean he is a bad player.

The plan is clear- trade rogers and prospects for reynolds, sign 1 more bullpen arm, hope for health and better luck/betting pitchers in 1 run games and some bouncebacks from Soler and Garcia, and if it doesnt happen move on to the following year and try to keep finding long term cost controlled hitting talent to complement the ridiculous rotation we will have in a year with Cabrera and Luzardo letting loose on the innings, Eury coming up for good, Meyer coming back, and maybe sixto being something again.

The team doesnt have to transform a 69 win team into a surefire playoff team for it to be a successful offseason. Ng has deservedly gotten shit for the start to the offseason, but if she turns it into Segura, Cueto, Arraez, and Reynolds while just giving up Rogers and Pablo and prospects and still have a long term rotation of Sandy, Luzardo, Cabrera, Eury, Meyer, Eder, Fulton, and Sixto is a great offseason. Right now it's just alright, Reynolds or whoever might be available with a similar good impact bat under team control would be the icing on the cake.

Also, i wouldnt put my hopes on it, but there is a theoretical path to a wild card contention with Reynolds, health working out for us with Jazz and the pitching, obvious bouncebacks from Soler and Garcia, and slightly less terrible luck in 1 run games. Coming into the offseason you wanted them to add a impact multi WAR CF. They have done that by moving jazz and acquiring Arraez. You wanted an innings eating SP who can bridge the gap to next year with Pablo being traded. They did that. cueto was phenomenal last year. You also wanted that at SS. They didnt do that, but getting reynolds and Wendle just being himself and slightly better again is a good plan as well that just rearranges the same WAR you wanted to add. It all boils down to this- they need to get Reynolds to really make this offseason a home run, and you need to stop blindly following computer projections without ever looking back at how terrible they are.

[fish16]

For more of those lovely projections you love to rely on, look at the pitching. Sandy- of by 1.4. Rogers, off by 2.4. Lopez, actually pretty good. Luzardo, off by 1.0 while they were projecting a full year and he barely pitched half a year, Sixto they had at 2 Lol. No one is saying they arent helpful guides, but your analysis is consistently crap because you never acknowledge how consistently off they are because baseball is inherently unpredictable and subject to wild fluctuations on a year in and year out basis.

[rmc523]

Anderson isn't wrong with those comments. Not to rehash things, but them doing absolutely nothing after making the playoffs in 2020 was telling. I get it may have been "early" vs. their timeline, but who cares - they should have pushed to make some moves and at least try to compete instead of just nothing/back to rebuild mode.

Just about any other team with our payroll would've dropped one of the big SS guys on the market on our roster AND traded for Reynolds on top of our other moves. Alas, we can't have nice things lol.

[lou]

Again, PROJECTIONS. Projections that are consistently wrong that you never take any actual review of after the fact. Lets do so now: Last year, they had jazz at 1 WAr over a full season. he had 2.6 in 1/3 of a season. They had Stallings at 2.0. He was -.6. Lewin they had at 1, he was -.7. Rojas they had at 2.4, they were at double his actual production, he finished at 1.2. Anderson was at 2. He actually finished with .5. Aguilar they had at 1.2. He finished with -.1. Avisail garcia they had at 1.6. He was -.6. These arent close, and you never take any actual ownership of that fact after the fact, but you treat them as gospel nonetheless every fucking offseason, and it's why your posts are nonsensical a lot of the time.

Baseball is the most inconsistent and hardest sport to project players on a year to year basis. Football players, basketball players, and for the most part hockey players are consistent on a year to year basis in their prime. If you wanted to use models as the end all be all in those sports, fine, but blindly following computer projections in baseball with 0 room for anyone who calls you out on that fact is ridiculous. and it's why you are consistently advocating for a marlins team with limited payroll abilities to sign mediocre players to 15 million a year contracts. Again, see didi gregorious.

Not sure how many times we have to go over this, but im not saying rosario is a bad player, im saying your hope that they give him 15 million for 5 years is a horrendous value for the actual player he is, specifically for a team with the marlins payroll limitations. That doesnt mean he is a bad player.

The plan is clear- trade rogers and prospects for reynolds, sign 1 more bullpen arm, hope for health and better luck/betting pitchers in 1 run games and some bouncebacks from Soler and Garcia, and if it doesnt happen move on to the following year and try to keep finding long term cost controlled hitting talent to complement the ridiculous rotation we will have in a year with Cabrera and Luzardo letting loose on the innings, Eury coming up for good, Meyer coming back, and maybe sixto being something again.

The team doesnt have to transform a 69 win team into a surefire playoff team for it to be a successful offseason. Ng has deservedly gotten shit for the start to the offseason, but if she turns it into Segura, Cueto, Arraez, and Reynolds while just giving up Rogers and Pablo and prospects and still have a long term rotation of Sandy, Luzardo, Cabrera, Eury, Meyer, Eder, Fulton, and Sixto is a great offseason. Right now it's just alright, Reynolds or whoever might be available with a similar good impact bat under team control would be the icing on the cake.

Also, i wouldnt put my hopes on it, but there is a theoretical path to a wild card contention with Reynolds, health working out for us with Jazz and the pitching, obvious bouncebacks from Soler and Garcia, and slightly less terrible luck in 1 run games. Coming into the offseason you wanted them to add a impact multi WAR CF. They have done that by moving jazz and acquiring Arraez. You wanted an innings eating SP who can bridge the gap to next year with Pablo being traded. They did that. cueto was phenomenal last year. You also wanted that at SS. They didnt do that, but getting reynolds and Wendle just being himself and slightly better again is a good plan as well that just rearranges the same WAR you wanted to add. It all boils down to this- they need to get Reynolds to really make this offseason a home run, and you need to stop blindly following computer projections without ever looking back at how terrible they are.

I think my favorite thing about this is the war path you went on last offseason that Bryan Reynolds isn't a special bat, can't play CF, not the kind of guy the Marlins should trade for, doesn't move the needle, then you went on a victory lap because he had an objectively terrible April (ignoring how we always poke fun at Lee about SSS), got hurt, and felt validated about this, and now, if they get Reynolds it's a great offseason, icing on the cake, the only type of guy that makes them a fringe contender, and it's a offseason home run.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, has changed about Reynolds this last year except your opinion about him. So when you go on these diatribes that the entire community of analytical baseball sites are consistently wrong (they are not in the aggregate of course, guys skills change and we can all cherry pick where things went wrong), and make other foolish comments at how baseball is harder to project than other sports when baseball is the most individualized major sport where players choose their own destiny versus being literally reliant on the players around them to get them the ball/puck, maybe it would be a good moment to reflect that maybe you are missing some things. Yea, I thought Didi was going to be good. I liked Hermida. I thought BJ Upton was a good signing possibility for the Marlins. I liked Joey Gathright too. I thought Carl Crawford would be tremendous in Boston, and so did their front office. The Phillies, who made the world series, liked Nick Castellanos. These things happen, but it doesn't mean that the analytics community is nonsensical and everyone blindly follows them. Having stats and data is strongly suggestive that player X will perform as Y versus looking at Reggie Abercrombie and saying my god, that guy looks the part and he hit that 480 foot HR in Colorado so he can't be bad. These writers get hired every offseason to join front offices if you were not aware. If you want to take a leap off faith and project the Marlins will have no bad news, no injuries, and 5-7 guys in the team radically overachieve to make them a contender - go for it. That's where a 2022 88 win projection comes from. But the data doesn't support this even if there is a single digit percentage chance this could happen. I think a team should get to a position where they look like a contender, and right now, they don't. And that's based on both analytics and the eye test. Basically, you aren't wrong that analytics aren't the gospel, but they are extremely helpful, the best source of data that we do have, and you shouldn't cast them aside just because Stallings and Garcia sucked. Shit happens. Fangraphs and baseball savant are smarter than everyone here.

I think I'll end with the bold. Are you a front office stooge trying to gaslight the remaining Marlins fans? This is year 6 of the rebuild (or build?) and we shouldn't be expecting a playoff contender in year SIX with this pitching staff, currently a $90m on-field payroll which ranks well into the bottom 10, and a multitude of minor league assets they still could trade? Are we just sprinkling a few good moves every year to keep the grift up of we are getting better eventually, but not actually ever building to a playoff team? You play to win the game. We're on the same page with Reynolds - he'd be tremendous. But they still need more and I don't accept he alone makes this a home run offseason. In fact, you might say getting just him makes it worse as now you've made a real plant the flag move and stopped at third base when various other guys are needed (Rosario, Wacha, Profar, Chafin.... M. Taylor just got traded). Yes, getting to third base is an improvement, but why stop there? This is the constant frustration with them. It's been 6 years. You know what also works as I am trying to conceive a path outside Rosario for you. Sign Elvis Andrus (.827 OPS vs LHP last year, .725 for his long career). Why isn't the organization talking about THAT (he doesn't whiff either checking that box) versus Yuli? Neither is likely inspiring, but Andrus is a perfect compliment to Wendle and effectively replaces Rojas on the roster as-is. You do that instead of Yuli, use Arraez as your backup 1B (not ideal, but beggars can't be choosers), and then go off and get Reynolds/Bednar (or just Reynolds and sign Chafin) and sign Wacha to replace whatever SP you moved.... and we are not at the Phillies on paper, but we're in a real margin of error now where Jazz/Sandy combining for 10+ WAR (which they paced last year), bridges the gap quickly. Let alone other breakouts. LETS. DO. THIS.

[fish16]

Anderson isn't wrong with those comments. Not to rehash things, but them doing absolutely nothing after making the playoffs in 2020 was telling. I get it may have been "early" vs. their timeline, but who cares - they should have pushed to make some moves and at least try to compete instead of just nothing/back to rebuild mode.

Just about any other team with our payroll would've dropped one of the big SS guys on the market on our roster AND traded for Reynolds on top of our other moves. Alas, we can't have nice things lol.

to me the bigger issue was not spending after 2021 (or spending really stupidly on Soler and Garcia) than not spending after 2020. that 2020 team was clearly smoke and mirrors by mediocre veterans in a shortened covid year. Guys like Aguilar, Rojas, Cooper, cervelli, Kintzler, Castano, elieser, something named James Hoyt, Yimi all played out of their minds. 2021 you could make a case that we were closer to contending with another year of development for the young guys.

[lou]

Anderson isn't wrong with those comments. Not to rehash things, but them doing absolutely nothing after making the playoffs in 2020 was telling. I get it may have been "early" vs. their timeline, but who cares - they should have pushed to make some moves and at least try to compete instead of just nothing/back to rebuild mode.

Just about any other team with our payroll would've dropped one of the big SS guys on the market on our roster AND traded for Reynolds on top of our other moves. Alas, we can't have nice things lol.

Yes, look at the Rangers - Seager, Semien, Degrom, Gray, and Eovaldi. They are just like the Marlins, huge prospect base emerging and they are bridging the gap.

Yes I wouldn't expect the Marlins to sign something insane like that as Texas is spending luxury tax kind of money, and sure we can say "Garcia" and "Soler" would effectively amount to Gray or Eovaldi's deals, but could they sign "1" of those guys, and then maybe trade for Reynolds and sign a stop-gap SP like Wacha also? An epic SS(or Nimmo or Rodon) + Reynolds would cost like $125m in payroll next year. After nothing for 5 years. Project as a top 5-7 team in the NL. Have clear payroll moving forward and still a deep farm as Reynolds+Arraez didn't cost you Eury/Berry and most of Meyer/Sixto/Fulton/Eder at a minimum.

Maybe they are just waiting to IL Meyer/Bender as they can in roughly 3 weeks and have some moves planned and wouldn't have to DFA anybody.

[rmc523]

to me the bigger issue was not spending after 2021 (or spending really stupidly on Soler and Garcia) than not spending after 2020. that 2020 team was clearly smoke and mirrors by mediocre veterans in a shortened covid year. Guys like Aguilar, Rojas, Cooper, cervelli, Kintzler, Castano, elieser, something named James Hoyt, Yimi all played out of their minds. 2021 you could make a case that we were closer to contending with another year of development for the young guys.

That's fair, and I'd say moves should have been made after both years, so we're not stuck having to redo the entire roster/lineup in a single offseason like this year...

[Nick]

You cannot tell me Starling Marte would not have accepted a 4 year/$60 million contract after 2020. That would've been a good first step.

[fish16]

I think my favorite thing about this is the war path you went on last offseason that Bryan Reynolds isn't a special bat, can't play CF, not the kind of guy the Marlins should trade for, doesn't move the needle, then you went on a victory lap because he had an objectively terrible April (ignoring how we always poke fun at Lee about SSS), got hurt, and felt validated about this, and now, if they get Reynolds it's a great offseason, icing on the cake, the only type of guy that makes them a fringe contender, and it's a offseason home run.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, has changed about Reynolds this last year except your opinion about him. So when you go on these diatribes that the entire community of analytical baseball sites are consistently wrong (they are not in the aggregate of course, guys skills change and we can all cherry pick where things went wrong), and make other foolish comments at how baseball is harder to project than other sports when baseball is the most individualized major sport where players choose their own destiny versus being literally reliant on the players around them to get them the ball/puck, maybe it would be a good moment to reflect that maybe you are missing some things. Yea, I thought Didi was going to be good. I liked Hermida. I thought BJ Upton was a good signing possibility for the Marlins. I liked Joey Gathright too. I thought Carl Crawford would be tremendous in Boston, and so did their front office. The Phillies, who made the world series, liked Nick Castellanos. These things happen, but it doesn't mean that the analytics community is nonsensical and everyone blindly follows them. Having stats and data is strongly suggestive that player X will perform as Y versus looking at Reggie Abercrombie and saying my god, that guy looks the part and he hit that 480 foot HR in Colorado so he can't be bad. These writers get hired every offseason to join front offices if you were not aware. If you want to take a leap off faith and project the Marlins will have no bad news, no injuries, and 5-7 guys in the team radically overachieve to make them a contender - go for it. That's where a 2022 88 win projection comes from. But the data doesn't support this even if there is a single digit percentage chance this could happen. I think a team should get to a position where they look like a contender, and right now, they don't. And that's based on both analytics and the eye test. Basically, you aren't wrong that analytics aren't the gospel, but they are extremely helpful, the best source of data that we do have, and you shouldn't cast them aside just because Stallings and Garcia sucked. Shit happens. Fangraphs and baseball savant are smarter than everyone here.

I think I'll end with the bold. Are you a front office stooge trying to gaslight the remaining Marlins fans? This is year 6 of the rebuild (or build?) and we shouldn't be expecting a playoff contender in year SIX with this pitching staff, currently a $90m on-field payroll which ranks well into the bottom 10, and a multitude of minor league assets they still could trade? Are we just sprinkling a few good moves every year to keep the grift up of we are getting better eventually, but not actually ever building to a playoff team? You play to win the game. We're on the same page with Reynolds - he'd be tremendous. But they still need more and I don't accept he alone makes this a home run offseason. In fact, you might say getting just him makes it worse as now you've made a real plant the flag move and stopped at third base when various other guys are needed (Rosario, Wacha, Profar, Chafin.... M. Taylor just got traded). Yes, getting to third base is an improvement, but why stop there? This is the constant frustration with them. It's been 6 years. You know what also works as I am trying to conceive a path outside Rosario for you. Sign Elvis Andrus (.827 OPS vs LHP last year, .725 for his long career). Why isn't the organization talking about THAT (he doesn't whiff either checking that box) versus Yuli? Neither is likely inspiring, but Andrus is a perfect compliment to Wendle and effectively replaces Rojas on the roster as-is. You do that instead of Yuli, use Arraez as your backup 1B (not ideal, but beggars can't be choosers), and then go off and get Reynolds/Bednar (or just Reynolds and sign Chafin) and sign Wacha to replace whatever SP you moved.... and we are not at the Phillies on paper, but we're in a real margin of error now where Jazz/Sandy combining for 10+ WAR (which they paced last year), bridges the gap quickly. Let alone other breakouts. LETS. DO. THIS.

Your revisionist history is funny. My issue with Reynolds was never that i thought he was a bad player, i thought he was a good player, but not the superstar you were acting like he was with the package you were giving up for him hypothetically plus the fact that you had to pay him a lot in an extension. You consistently called him a 4-5 WAR player because he had 1 outstanding year at 6.1 WAR and he went out and put up a good but nothing special 2.9 WAR. Plus the fact that he would have to be moved to LF and thus not actually fill the enormous CF hole they had. Now that they have Jazz as a hypothetical problem solver in CF, and now that Reynolds is a year closer to free agency and requested a trade, the price is absolutely lower, and if it isnt, you dont make the trade. As your LF of the future at a lower price due to his closer proximity to free agency and the fact that the pirates have lost a ton of leverage, he makes a lot more sense this year at the position he should actually be playing combined with the lower price tag to get him. Plus they are closer to contention this year and next year with the rotation developing in a really positive way and the addition of Arraez and Segura and Jazz further developing.

Following your logic last year, you would have given up a ridiculous package for him, signed him to an enormous extension, played him at a position he is terrible at defensively and wouldnt have stuck at long term, and then done what? Brought a 68 win team to a 72 win team? It was nonsensical, not because Reynolds was a bad player, but because you were overrating just how good he actually was and how much of an impact he would have had last year, plus given up a stupid package to get him. He's now the perfect complementary piece given that we added arraez, jazz has another year of development, Segura, and the price tag to get him will be lower given his request for a trade and his closer proximity to free agency.

Just because baseball is the most individualized sport does not mean it is the easiest to predict. Baseball is by far out of the 4 major sports in america the one that is subject to the most wild fluctuations in performance year to year on an individual basis. It's why the projections i showed you last year for the marlins alone were nowhere close. My entire premise is not that they arent useful data points, it's that you follow them blindly and when someone points out their flaws you act incensed as if god forbid we dont believe in a particular computer projection in the sport most prone to individual fluctuations. That's all im saying. It's fine to look at projections, but you act holier than thou when someone points out their enormous flaws on a year to year basis as a way to discredit some of their rather absurd projections.

[lou]

Your revisionist history is funny. My issue with Reynolds was never that i thought he was a bad player, i thought he was a good player, but not the superstar you were acting like he was with the package you were giving up for him hypothetically plus the fact that you had to pay him a lot in an extension. You consistently called him a 4-5 WAR player because he had 1 outstanding year at 6.1 WAR and he went out and put up a good but nothing special 2.9 WAR. Plus the fact that he would have to be moved to LF and thus not actually fill the enormous CF hole they had. Now that they have Jazz as a hypothetical problem solver in CF, and now that Reynolds is a year closer to free agency and requested a trade, the price is absolutely lower, and if it isnt, you dont make the trade. As your LF of the future at a lower price due to his closer proximity to free agency and the fact that the pirates have lost a ton of leverage, he makes a lot more sense this year at the position he should actually be playing combined with the lower price tag to get him. Plus they are closer to contention this year and next year with the rotation developing in a really positive way and the addition of Arraez and Segura and Jazz further developing.

Following your logic last year, you would have given up a ridiculous package for him, signed him to an enormous extension, played him at a position he is terrible at defensively and wouldnt have stuck at long term, and then done what? Brought a 68 win team to a 72 win team? It was nonsensical, not because Reynolds was a bad player, but because you were overrating just how good he actually was and how much of an impact he would have had last year, plus given up a stupid package to get him. He's now the perfect complementary piece given that we added arraez, jazz has another year of development, Segura, and the price tag to get him will be lower given his request for a trade and his closer proximity to free agency.

Just because baseball is the most individualized sport does not mean it is the easiest to predict. Baseball is by far out of the 4 major sports in america the one that is subject to the most wild fluctuations in performance year to year on an individual basis. It's why the projections i showed you last year for the marlins alone were nowhere close. My entire premise is not that they arent useful data points, it's that you follow them blindly and when someone points out their flaws you act incensed as if god forbid we dont believe in a particular computer projection in the sport most prone to individual fluctuations. That's all im saying. It's fine to look at projections, but you act holier than thou when someone points out their enormous flaws on a year to year basis as a way to discredit some of their rather absurd projections.

Reynolds is a superstar that literally every contending team in baseball wants and the Pirates are waiting for someone to pay exorbitantly for him because they understand how valuable he is. Please stop back tracking. Remember how you didn't even realize for months what Reynolds service time was and had an epiphany he had more control than you thought and then started warming up to him? There is no lower price for him. He has years of control. He's great. Reynolds is not a complimentary piece. He'd be the 2nd/3rd best player on the team instantly and for years. This is getting tiresome.

And it's the bold type comments where I think you might really be a front office stooge. This is gaslighting. Reynolds is a great player. This team should strive to acquire many great players and as one called it, BUILD, the franchise. It's the same package as last year so any suggestion a trade package is ridiculous is moot. Remember when the rumor was the Pirates wanted Meyer/Bleday/Watson and you were like WOAH Watson was the # 1 pick, Bleday is turning around with the AFL, and Meyer is a stud. So you want to play the revisionist card, would you trade Meyer/Bleday/Watson for Reynolds today? Would this team be better off having traded for Reynolds then hoarding prospects? I *really* hope you can figure this one out.

[lou]

And don't say I never do anything for you, here's some Salas bashing - https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/m...271570487.html

TLDR - Cappe is better and still can be viewed as a SS even if he may grow out, and scouts like Ian lewis who will stay in the infield. Salas may be getting too big.


If the Marlins were projecting Salas as a corner-OF in a few years (similar to Lee's hope they try these guys all over as a super athletic defensive team), that would certainly make the Pablo move better on paper as the value is obviously tied to being up the middle/at least 3B. We'll see what the larger write ups say, but the thought process becomes a little clearer here if Cappe is in fact better and Salas is more of an OF risk. Still, signing Arraez for 5/$55 is the way to go here IMO.

[rmc523]

You cannot tell me Starling Marte would not have accepted a 4 year/$60 million contract after 2020. That would've been a good first step.

For sure. If they offered him a deal closer to our "final offer" initially, he'd have likely signed. Instead they lowballed him so much, he left.

[rmc523]

Also, the Twins acquired Michael A Taylor from the Royals for minor league relievers Evan Sisk and Steven Cruz .

I know he was often in Lou's trade permutations.

[fish16]

Reynolds is a superstar that literally every contending team in baseball wants and the Pirates are waiting for someone to pay exorbitantly for him because they understand how valuable he is. Please stop back tracking. Remember how you didn't even realize for months what Reynolds service time was and had an epiphany he had more control than you thought and then started warming up to him? There is no lower price for him. He has years of control. He's great. Reynolds is not a complimentary piece. He'd be the 2nd/3rd best player on the team instantly and for years. This is getting tiresome.

And it's the bold type comments where I think you might really be a front office stooge. This is gaslighting. Reynolds is a great player. This team should strive to acquire many great players and as one called it, BUILD, the franchise. It's the same package as last year so any suggestion a trade package is ridiculous is moot. Remember when the rumor was the Pirates wanted Meyer/Bleday/Watson and you were like WOAH Watson was the # 1 pick, Bleday is turning around with the AFL, and Meyer is a stud. So you want to play the revisionist card, would you trade Meyer/Bleday/Watson for Reynolds today? Would this team be better off having traded for Reynolds then hoarding prospects? I *really* hope you can figure this one out.

One can be a really good player without having to be hyperbolic (something you often criticize me as) and say they are a superstar. His last 3 years, his WAR is .1 over 60 games, 6.1 over a full season, and 2.9 over a full season. That's a good player, that's not a superstar. Which is ok. He would be a great addition, but he's not a superstar like Soto, Judge, Trout, Ohtani, Freeman, Turner, Betts, Goldschmidt, Arenado. Superstars in my definition is someone who can easily be counted on to put up 5-6+ WAR a season consistently over 162 games. Bryan Reynolds is good, not great, and that's doesnt mean he still wouldnt be a terrific addition at this point to add to jazz and arraez as lineup cornerstones currently.

[fish16]

For sure. If they offered him a deal closer to our "final offer" initially, he'd have likely signed. Instead they lowballed him so much, he left.

this. The marte thing is the only thing i really fault them for not doing in 2020. That was a ridiculous low ball mistake. He's put up at least 3 WAR every single year of his career that he played more than 77 games. The definition of consistency, and i think the rumor at the time was that he was only looking for like 3 years 45 million i think and we offered him a lot less.