Marlins Beat the Phillies

[THE_REAL_MIBS]

@joecapMARLINS: Mgs Jack McKeon reiterated that Leo Nunez is stil the closer. Just getting a mental break while Cishek gets valuable experience #Marlins

/Twitter

[Erick]

HANLEY SUCKS BECAUSE IT IS RIGHT NOW.

Leo is not the best.
But Cishek is not better.

Leo's mediocre #'s this year matchup fairly well to what he's done the majority of his career.

How is this similar to Hanley?

What do you think Cishek's upside is?

[TealMonster08]

My favorite player on the Marlins is Burke Badenhop.
He is not better than Leo Nunez and will never be.
He is most likely not better than Cishek, and has way less electric stuff.

My love of Burke does not skew my judgement.

If Leo is not a crunch-time pitcher, which he may very well not be, then there is no way you can call Cishek a crunch-time pitcher. He has not done it long enough or well enough.
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Leo's mediocre #'s this year matchup fairly well to what he's done the majority of his career.

How is this similar to Hanley?

What do you think Cishek's upside is?

It is not similar to Hanley but to say that whoever is better right now is better than I will be ridiculous as well.

Cisheks upside is not better than Leos upside. (at this point)

Cishek pitches mostly the 7th and 8th inning of games that we are usually losing. and is not dominant most of the time.

Nunez pitches the 9th inning of games that we are usually winning. and is not dominant most of the time.

[HUGG]

Well, the reality also is, until these last 3 admittedly terrible outings, Nunez was 32/36 on save opps and had a opponents line of .236/.290/.394

track record probably indicates he's regressing to his usual performance, but he had been pretty damn good until Monday before last (despite most's effort to pretend otherwise)

and I've never been a fan of him

[Erick]

My favorite player on the Marlins is Burke Badenhop.
He is not better than Leo Nunez and will never be.
He is most likely not better than Cishek, and has way less electric stuff.

My love of Burke does not skew my judgement.

If Leo is not a crunch-time pitcher, which he may very well not be, then there is no way you can call Cishek a crunch-time pitcher. He has not done it long enough or well enough.

I never called Steve Cishek a "crunch-time pitcher."

I just said that Leo Nunez is not a "crunch-time pitcher."

Getting 30+ saves per year does not make someone a "crunch-time pitcher." Cishek and Badenhop can do that too if they got approximately 40 save opportunities per year.

The only reason why Leo Nunez is a closer is because he pitches for the Florida Marlins.

The Marlins have had to play with small payrolls and thus have not paid relievers in the past like most other teams. He just so happened to be better than Matt Lindstrom (also not a closer...not even a setup man).

The Marlins kept the faith in him this offseason and actually paid him because he does have the stuff and posted strong peripherals last year. There was hope. He has regressed a lot this year.

You can't be a consistent "crunch-time pitcher" when you give up as many HR's as he does.
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Well, the reality also is, until these last 3 admittedly terrible outings, Nunez was 32/36 on save opps and had a opponents line of .236/.290/.394

track record probably indicates he's regressing to his usual performance, but he had been pretty damn good until Monday before last (despite most's effort to pretend otherwise)

and I've never been a fan of him

It's not a surprise that he started blowing saves.

He had a good save % despite average peripherals. He's never been a guy who's outperformed his peripherals. I'd say he's just regressing to his usual performance.

He also historically sucks the most in the month of August for some reason.
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My favorite player on the Marlins is Burke Badenhop.
He is not better than Leo Nunez and will never be.
He is most likely not better than Cishek, and has way less electric stuff.

My love of Burke does not skew my judgement.

If Leo is not a crunch-time pitcher, which he may very well not be, then there is no way you can call Cishek a crunch-time pitcher. He has not done it long enough or well enough.
--------------------


It is not similar to Hanley but to say that whoever is better right now is better than I will be ridiculous as well.

Cisheks upside is not better than Leos upside. (at this point)

Cishek pitches mostly the 7th and 8th inning of games that we are usually losing. and is not dominant most of the time.

Nunez pitches the 9th inning of games that we are usually winning. and is not dominant most of the time.

He's been the most dominant reliever on the team this year.

[TealMonster08]

Do you know why Leo Nunez is the closer of the Florida Marlins?

Because he is the best reliever on the Florida Marlins.

That doesnt make him good, or a closer, but he is the best we have.

And Cishek has not done anything that makes me think he is better than Leo Nunez at all.

[Erick]

Do you know why Leo Nunez is the closer of the Florida Marlins?

Because he is the best reliever on the Florida Marlins.

That doesnt make him good, or a closer, but he is the best we have.

And Cishek has not done anything that makes me think he is better than Leo Nunez at all.

Leo Nunez is not the best reliever on this team. That is really silly.

If you don't believe in Cishek, fine. Mujica has proven that he's better than Leo Nunez, and that's not just this year.

While he, too, has a tendency to give up the long ball, Mujica rarely walks hitters and he's an absolute innings eater out of the bullpen.
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And Cishek has not done anything that makes me think he is better than Leo Nunez at all.

The 9.44 K/9, 53.6 GB%, and only 1 HR allowed in 41 innings this year don't do anything for you?

[TealMonster08]

Nunez has the best stuff. And is effective enough to do his job the majority of the time.

That is what I meant by best.

Mujica has been the most effective in his role though, I agree with that.

We simply dont have a closer. No one with the mental makeup at least.

/hastogotosleep.

[Erick]

For what it's worth, I'd be absolutely fine with a closer-by-committee next year.

[Bobbob1313]

The 9.44 K/9, 53.6 GB%, and only 1 HR allowed in 41 innings this year don't do anything for you?

When placed next to the sub-Leo Nunez minor league numbers over a much larger sample size, no, they do not necessarily tickle my fancy.
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You basically have 46 innings at the major league level and 31 innings at the AA level that indicate he can keep up this type of control, K-rate, and HRs. You have 220 other innings saying he's got bad control, and OK K-rates. The vast majority of his professional career looks like Burke Badenhop.

Like I said yesterday, don't be fooled by 42 innings. He may be awesome, but he may be Doug Waechter, Joe Nelson, Dan Meyer, Justin Miller, or any other number of flash in the pan relievers who put up very good partial seasons.

Also, Cishek has not "gotten a lot better this year." He was super mediocre in AAA, got called up and is Dan Meyering the world in the majors. It doesn't necessarily mean he's gotten better.

[Erick]

When placed next to the sub-Leo Nunez minor league numbers over a much larger sample size, no, they do not necessarily tickle my fancy.
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You basically have 46 innings at the major league level and 31 innings at the AA level that indicate he can keep up this type of control, K-rate, and HRs. You have 220 other innings saying he's got bad control, and OK K-rates. The vast majority of his professional career looks like Burke Badenhop.

Like I said yesterday, don't be fooled by 42 innings. He may be awesome, but he may be Doug Waechter, Joe Nelson, Dan Meyer, Justin Miller, or any other number of flash in the pan relievers who put up very good partial seasons.

Also, Cishek has not "gotten a lot better this year." He was super mediocre in AAA, got called up and is Dan Meyering the world in the majors. It doesn't necessarily mean he's gotten better.

Dan Meyer and all the other journeymen you mentioned are terrible comparisons.

Especially Dan Meyer. Whoever couldn't see that Dan Meyer was a clear fluke was being rather silly. For starters, he was an extreme flyball pitcher. Second, he had a .255 .BABIP that year.

Cishek might not continue to put up numbers as he has this year at the big league level, but I'd be surprised if he doesn't stick around in the big leagues.

In Cishek's case, he absolutely dominates one side of the plate. He's basically really difficult on right-handed hitters. This was even the case in AAA this year. That much is certain.
If Cishek has a problem, it will probably be with the lefties. The encouraging sign is that he just doesn't give up many HR's at all.

I don't really think he's the long-term solution at closer, but I definitely think he's a solution as a quality middle reliever for this team. Better than Badenhop quality.

[Bobbob1313]

They're not meant to be direct comparisons; they're just pointing out that judging outlier relief seasons can lead to inaccuracy. Cishek's season, based on his K rate and BB rate relative to their minor league norms, is just as much a fluke as anything those guys did. Maybe it's because something clicked between having a 1.58 K/BB ratio in AAA and now. Or maybe it's a small sample size fluke?

And if he becomes a righty dominator who limits HRs, then he's Burke Badenhop. Which is what his minor league resume suggests

[Namaste]

Worst post game thread ever?

The Marlins won. weeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Party]

I like these types of discussions.

[Bobbob1313]

I do not understand why discussing players is a bad thing?