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  • Trading Hanley

    This is something I've wanted to look into for awhile but haven't been able to, but now I can woo. This obviously isn't the "trade Hanley because he doesn't respect the game!" dumbshit, but rather it's simply looking at Hanley with the motto: Buy low, sell high. And that's the big thing; it's not about trying to trade Hanley, but rather it's "Did Hanley peak? And if so, should we try to find someone who would give value based off his peak rather than future production?" Who knows if anyone would give us that value, but there's still the question, did Hanley peak? For 3 years he was a top-5 player, but last year he wasn't even the top SS and things did not tread the right way this year. Should we still expect a top-5 player?

    The one consistent for Hanley has been the ability to jack the ball out of the ballpark. In fact, even with the fact he posted the lowest .ISO of his career last year, he posted his second best HR/FB%. Even with him again looking to post the lowest ISO of his career, his HR/FB% is still at 12.5%; Ranking 4th out of his 6 years and not even a full percent under his 13.4% career rate.

    But he is hitting less home runs, mostly because he's hitting more balls on the ground. From 2007-2009, his GB% in those 3 years was 41.4%; Last year that number jumped nearly 10% to 51.0% and it's basically replicating itself at 50.8% this year. Needless to say, it's hard to hit a ball out of the ballpark when you hit the ball on the ground half the time.

    Last year was hopefully just an anomaly, but he has been repeating it again this year. If he's going to continue to post 50%+ GB numbers, he's likely not going to be posting .200+ ISOs, let alone the .224 ISO he had from 2007-2009.

    Thankfully, not all is doom-and-gloom; July is the light at the end of the tunnel. From April to June, Hanley posted a GB rate of 54% but in July it's back to 41.5% - and Hanley's ISO is up to .241 to compliment it. Hanley has looked like Hanley for the past month, and hopefully that stays and is not what he was the previous 9 months.

    Unfortunately, power is not just HRs. It's means getting doubles and triples, too. Which, unfortunately, has been quite the downward trend in his career. Looking at the % of hits that are doubles/triples that stay inside the ballpark, with the numbers in the parenthesis being the percent of singles/doubles&triples/homers:

    06: 33.9% (60.0%/30.8%/9.2%)
    07: 29.5% (60.8%/25.5%/13.7%)
    08: 26.4% (59.9%/21.5%/18.6%)
    09: 24.9% (66.0%/21.8%/12.2%)
    10: 21.1% (68.7%/18.4%/12.9%)
    11: 19.7% (69.7%/17.1%/13.2%)

    Sure, part of the past two years has to do with hitting the ball on the ground more, but the big increase in singles is certainly alarming. And why has the rate of which he gets doubles/triples decreased each year? Is this where "hustle" does come in? Has he simply lost speed with the growth of his body/increase in age? Is he hitting less balls in the gap outside of the increase in GBs (Possible but unlikely considering his high BABIPs)? Whatever the case is, he's becoming more and more of a singles hitter with each passing year.

    There's also then the effect the drop in power will have on his BABIP, last year he posted the lowest BABIP in his career to match the lowest ISO, and this year he's looking like he'll again "beat" that number.

    Now, that's not to say he isn't an offensive threat. His drop in both BABIP and ISO still put him in above-average category, and he's still post very good BB/Ks. But is he the .947 OPS bat he was from 07-09, or the .853 OPS bat he was last year? With how his peripherals are again duplicating what they were last year, Hanley might end up being more of a mid-.800 OPS bat going forward rather than a mid-.900 OPS bat. Combine that with his decline in defense (After finally looking like a average defensive SS, he's looking to post his second strait UZR in the negative double digits) and you're looking at a drop from a 7.5 WAR player to a 4.5 WAR player. He'd still be a very good player, and he's still be worth his contract (Though he would no longer be a bargain) - In terms of skill, there is no reason at all to trade him.

    But can the Marlins be a better team without him? I wouldn't find it worth it if the package in return is that of a 4.5 WAR player. But if we could get a package of that for a 7.5 WAR player while trading a 4.5 WAR player...yes, that makes the team better.

    It's all obviously all hypothetical though, since the stadium means he will not be traded. And again, with his July and him looking like Hanley again, you'd hate to trade him and have him go back to being a top-5 player on a bargain contract. But I think it'd also be silly to think Hanley will always be that player if he his peripherals don't go back the right way.

  • #2
    Been a while since we had one of these from Nny.

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    • #3
      He's Mr Marlin and he's going into the Hall as a Marlin.

      I was told this.

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      • #4
        I understand why this thread was made.

        However, even in his decline, Hanley can still put up numbers as a shortstop like not many others in the game. To be honest, I think his offense will be fine. He won't be the .342 guy with 30+ home runs or 50+ RBI's anymore, but he'll still be a serious threat.

        The Marlins are in a tiny bit of a sticky situation. He's in a nice contract, he plays a position where it's nearly impossible to find a player of his caliber, and he's still really young. However, he's declined nearly every year and can become a team cancer at times. Even if you want to, you can't get rid of him.

        Personally, I think Hanley will play the entirety of his contract with the Fish, he'll maintain a statline of something like .290 25 HR's 90 RBI's 20 steals and a .870 or so OPS. We'll take it, be happy, and wait for Morrison and Stanton to reach their primes (Morrison is much better than he's performed this season, and Stanton will get more powerful with age).

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        • #5
          I do not think he is close to a team cancer. What Wes Helms and Jeff Conine think matter not.

          Besides all of this... Jeff Loria loves Hanley. We could be offered Aroldis Chapman, Bryce Harper, Starlin Castro and Josh Willingham and Loria still would have troubles signing off on it.

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          • #6
            I think even ignoring the stadium, you have to hold onto him and hope he goes back to being Hanley/keeps being July Hanley. I think the reward is too high to sell him.
            poop

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            • #7
              Originally posted by dim View Post
              I understand why this thread was made.

              However, even in his decline, Hanley can still put up numbers as a shortstop like not many others in the game. To be honest, I think his offense will be fine. He won't be the .342 guy with 30+ home runs or 50+ RBI's anymore, but he'll still be a serious threat.

              The Marlins are in a tiny bit of a sticky situation. He's in a nice contract, he plays a position where it's nearly impossible to find a player of his caliber, and he's still really young. However, he's declined nearly every year and can become a team cancer at times. Even if you want to, you can't get rid of him.

              Personally, I think Hanley will play the entirety of his contract with the Fish, he'll maintain a statline of something like .290 25 HR's 90 RBI's 20 steals and a .870 or so OPS. We'll take it, be happy, and wait for Morrison and Stanton to reach their primes (Morrison is much better than he's performed this season, and Stanton will get more powerful with age).
              again, the point isn't that his offensive isn't "fine" (His offense is more than fine even in his decline, if I may so pine in this most of mine, my dear clemintine). The question is if, by trading him, we would get a return based off his peak rather than current and possible future production.

              maybe we wouldn't because no team thinks he'll be in those peak years. But if we could, and we believe he isn't that (and you yourself don't think he is that), but we get the haul as if he is that, that makes the team better.

              I mean, if we can increase our production overall as a team by 7.5 WAR by trading Hanley, but by keeping him he is that 4.5 WAR player, that makes us 3 wins better. Obviously trades don't work that way, it all depends on the return, but that's exactly the point: If Hanley's return outweighs his production, why NOT trade him (Outside of stadium/"fire sale", which makes the entire topic moot, but that's beside the point)?
              --------------------
              Originally posted by Bobbob1313 View Post
              I think even ignoring the stadium, you have to hold onto him and hope he goes back to being Hanley/keeps being July Hanley. I think the reward is too high to sell him.
              I'm more inclined to agree than to jettison him off, especially with how he's done over the past month, but until July is a bigger sample size I'm not positive Hanley is still "Hanley"
              Last edited by nny; 07-27-2011, 11:08 PM. Reason: Doublepost Merged

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              • #8
                Does anyone think Hanley would do better at 3B, defensively?

                They keep him at SS because his offense makes him really valuable at the position, but considering how awful 3B have been this year, he might gain even more value there and it's possible the team could become even better, defensively.

                3B have been so bad this year. Especially in the National League.

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                • #9
                  We don't have a Matt Dominguez at SS.
                  poop

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                  • #10
                    Not that I'm giving up on him but Dominguez year in the PCL kinda sucks.

                    Then again, he's only 21.

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                    • #11
                      He's also supposed to be maybe the best defensive 3rd baseman in baseball.
                      poop

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                      • #12
                        My off-season wet dream was signing Jose Reyes and moving Hanley to 3rd. Of course, his throwing problem might be exacerbated there, but I think he'd be more then fine.

                        Also, he prob throws a fit if he's moved off short.
                        Last edited by Mainge; 07-27-2011, 11:52 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Reyes used to play 2B. We has space there.
                          --------------------
                          I also dreamt that before Reyes went and had this stupid year.
                          Last edited by Bobbob1313; 07-27-2011, 11:37 PM. Reason: Doublepost Merged
                          poop

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                          • #14
                            I'm not a big fan of giving Jose Reyes the long-term deal he's going to want.

                            Edit: Bobbob said it first and I did not see it.

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                            • #15
                              I hear your side, but there's no way he gets traded before we open the stadium.
                              This is a Dolphins town, though.

                              "Fuck, what've they done?'' --Ozzie Guillen

                              I am dead set against free agency, it can ruin baseball. --- George Steinbrenner

                              2010 SoFlaMarlins Fantasy Baseball Champion
                              Edmonton Ice Bats
                              2007 Teal League Wildcard
                              2008 Teal League Wildcard

                              2009 Teal League Wildcard
                              2010 Teal League Wildcard
                              2011 Teal League West Division Winner

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