Fredi Already On The Hot Seat?

[Beef]

Was the Valentine courtship for real?

[Party]

I think inserting Rhodes (i.e. one $2 million reliever) into the back end of the rotation changes the entire dynamic of that bullpen.

Care to provide a list of those four teams that made the postseason? I bet most of those teams had strengths in other departments to make up for weak bullpens.

The Dodgers play in the NL West. The Marlins play in the NL East.

[Bobbob1313]

Yankees, Phillies, Rockies, Angels.

And yes, they all had strengths to make up for weak bullpens. What I'm arguing is that we had far greater weaknesses than just the bullpen. I don't think any one relief pitcher (and certainly none of the ones readily available for 3 million dollars) makes a 5 win difference for this team, and that's the threshold you have to cross to get to the playoffs last year.

Could the bullpen have been better? Yes, 11 teams had better bullpens than we did. We could have been any one of them and we would have been better. I just don't happen to think that one pitcher would have made up that difference.

[Party]

Look at it this like this, with Rhodes in the bullpen mix three guys could have been interchangable at the end.

A bullpen of Calero, Nunez, Lindstrom and Rhodes in the last 3 innings would have been deadly. Deadly and it pushes guys like Pinto, Meyer and Sanches into lesser roles where they would have been more effective/valuable. That would have been an automatic strength.

[Bobbob1313]

Look at it this like this, with Rhodes in the bullpen mix three guys could have been interchangable at the end.

A bullpen of Calero, Nunez, Lindstrom and Rhodes in the last 3 innings would have been deadly. Deadly and it pushes guys like Pinto, Meyer and Sanches into lesser roles where they would have been more effective/valuable. That would have been an automatic strength.

If we have Rhodes, Meyer probably doesn't even make the team, so we lose arguably our best reliever for our first 4 months. I'd say that would have been a wash. We weren't carrying 3 lefties on this team.

[Party]

I don't think making Meyer the odd man out is a fair assumption considering his durability in roles.

[Bobbob1313]

Considering that he was a surprise to make the team out of spring training, adding Arthur Rhodes in the offseason last year pretty much guarantees him a spot in Nola or on the waiver wire. His success was anything but prescribed, and that's my larger point. Given that relief pitching is so volatile, mixing and matching is a better usage of your resources than giving 3 million to guys who may or may not work out. This was the first time since 2001 that Arthur Rhodes put together back to back sub-4 ERAs. He was not a sure thing either.

[nny]

and adding a right hander pitcher means probably no Sanches/Badenhop/someone who excelled.

The problem with the bullpen was Matt Lindstrom and Leo Nunez both imploding. If we signed somebody, the problem with the bullpen would have still been Matt Lindstrom and Leo Nunez both imploding, and your whole arguement of "pushing" guys like Meyer and Badenhop and Sanches to lesser roles when they preformed well does not make any sense.

[Party]

One more guy means Lindstrom and Nunez imploding in lesser roles.

[Swifty]

and adding a right hander pitcher means probably no Sanches/Badenhop/someone who excelled.

The problem with the bullpen was Matt Lindstrom and Leo Nunez both imploding. If we signed somebody, the problem with the bullpen would have still been Matt Lindstrom and Leo Nunez both imploding, and your whole arguement of "pushing" guys like Meyer and Badenhop and Sanches to lesser roles when they preformed well does not make any sense.

It makes more sense than saying the Yankees had an inferior bullpen to ours because of some silly ranking that takes into account the stats that were accrued in May by players who were long since DFA'd by June, let alone October.

[Party]

and adding a right hander pitcher means probably no Sanches/Badenhop/someone who excelled.

The problem with the bullpen was Matt Lindstrom and Leo Nunez both imploding. If we signed somebody, the problem with the bullpen would have still been Matt Lindstrom and Leo Nunez both imploding, and your whole arguement of "pushing" guys like Meyer and Badenhop and Sanches to lesser roles when they preformed well does not make any sense.

Having Sanches and Meyer performing as well as they did in the 6th and 7th inning and on fewer days (Meyer and Calero flaming out late) because of the added depth in options would have been beneficial to the bullpen.

Your argument that it would have not been beneficial makes no sense. You are adding and subtracting without taking into account where those additions and subtractions would have benefitted others.

[nny]

To such a marginal effect that saying it kept us out of the playoffs is nonsense.

We lost the wild card by 5 games. No one available would have improved us to the point of 5 games.
--------------------
how about instead of signing somebody, simply putting the guys who excelled in high leverage situations? The problem was not "the bullpen" the problem was Nunez and Lindstrom imploding, both of which would have likely been closers throughout the entire year anyway (And both of which could not have been forseen so don't act like it should have been known last offseason). Author Rhodes is not supplementing one of them some time during the year and you know it. Author Rhodes would have been pitching in the same innings Dan meyer was pitching in.

[Jay]

To such a marginal effect that saying it kept us out of the playoffs is nonsense.

We lost the wild card by 5 games. No one available would have improved us to the point of 5 games.
--------------------
how about instead of signing somebody, simply putting the guys who excelled in high leverage situations? The problem was not "the bullpen" the problem was Nunez and Lindstrom imploding, both of which would have likely been closers throughout the entire year anyway (And both of which could not have been forseen so don't act like it should have been known last offseason). Author Rhodes is not supplementing one of them some time during the year and you know it. Author Rhodes would have been pitching in the same innings Dan meyer was pitching in.

Author Rhodes would have been Dan Meyer. Roster spot and situations used so your removing someone who wasn't the problem for slightly higher expected performance.

[Bobbob1313]

One more guy means Lindstrom and Nunez imploding in lesser roles.

If anything, they both get used more in non-save situations that are higher leverage.
--------------------

It makes more sense than saying the Yankees had an inferior bullpen to ours because of some silly ranking that takes into account the stats that were accrued in May by players who were long since DFA'd by June, let alone October.

Silly rankings?

Bullpen ERA is a silly ranking?

The whole season matters!

[Swifty]

When you're attempting to show that this playoff team's bullpen was inferior to ours, yet the rankings have numbers accrued by players who have long been an afterthought, yes, it is a silly system.

Every team goes through transformations and phases of ineffectiveness, but the bullpen the Yankees started the season with is drastically different than the one they ended the year with, and that one was even more different than the one they took into the playoffs. You went from a bullpen of Rivera - Coke - Veras - Ramirez to Rivera - Hughes - Aceves - Robertson to Rivera - Joba - Hughes - Marte.

Sure "the whole season counts" but don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. The Yankees are the newest minting of a 3 deep power armed pen wins in October.