2010 Bench: Needs More Amezaga

[nny]

You know, I never noticed before, but Emilio since 2005 Emilio had a TZ in the minors at 2b of -5, and -1.6 TZ/150. That's not adjusting for league (As defense gets better the higher you get, with the majors obviously being the best defense). Adjusting for the puts him at -22.9 total, -7 TZ/150.

So, perhaps his -5 UZR/150 at 3b this season really shouldn't be a surprise and is more of what to expect going forward.

[Bobbob1313]

Also, I was pretty impressed, personally, with the way Bonifacio handled himself in those few games when Hanley was out and he had to play SS. I don't like him at 3rd, but I think he can be an above average fielder up the middle. Probably not gold glove worthy (though wasn't all of the talk when we got him about how he's a gold glove level defender at 2nd according to most scouts?), but it's not like he'd be a massive downgrade from Amezaga.

I think we are also ignoring the declines in Amezaga's offensive skills prior to last year (and the fact that he was complete dog shit in his time this year) and the fact that he's a pretty crap baserunner already (65% SB% career) and he's coming off knee surgery at the age of 31 (32 when the season starts). Who knows if he gets back to being the somewhat productive, valuable player he was from 2006-2008? He's not a sure thing. Not worth 1 mil extra, IMO.

[Swifty]

It's not $1 million, it's a little over $600K. I'd rather have Amezaga by himself than Bonifacio + Scott Proctor 2.0.

Plus, lord forbid anything were to happen to any of our starters in terms of health, but Amezaga lets you have that 3 week fill in for any position on the field if injury strikes; Bonifacio not only doesn't provide the same position versatility, but also he doesn't provide passable major league offense, even by NL 8 hole standards. On the one hand you're talking about a pinch runner who can't run the bases, on the other it's the ideal NL 8 hole hitter.

Neither are ideal, but Amezaga does several things well, Bonifacio doesn't really do anything well enough to even be dubbed the euphemistic "specialist."

[Bobbob1313]

I really think we are overrating Amezaga by calling him the "ideal 8 hole hitter". If he's your everyday hitter at any spot, your offense probably isn't very good.

I know Boner got picked off alot, but he was pretty good at taking the extra base. He's a far better base runner than Amezaga, so to say he doesn't do anything well is kind of false.

I hate that I'm defending Boner. I know everyone loves Amezaga because we got him for free and he's "amazin" and we hate Boner because we gave up Willingham for him and perception is a bitch, and all of this, but Amezaga really isn't that valuable of a player, doubly so for a team that has limited resources and has a guy that can probably do a passable imitation of him for 200 PAs. Neither should be counted on for significant playing time, and if you are forced to start either for a significant amount of time, you're probably in bad shape anyways.

[Metes]

I disagree with your value point, and I would argue Fredo's positional versatility makes him exactly the kind of player a team with limited resources needs to keep around.

[Beef]

I know everyone loves Amezaga because we got him for free and he's "amazin" and we hate Boner because we gave up Willingham for him and perception is a bitch, and all of this, but Amezaga really isn't that valuable of a player, doubly so for a team that has limited resources and has a guy that can probably do a passable imitation of him for 200 PAs. Neither should be counted on for significant playing time, and if you are forced to start either for a significant amount of time, you're probably in bad shape anyways.

Everyone who?

[Bobbob1313]

But if you have a guy that can do a passable imitation of Amezaga for 600k-1 mil less, that's better for a team with limited resources. If he can be the poor man's Amezaga, and we can use that money to get another potentially valuable piece that will have more of an impact. Say, if it means we can keep Calero (just throwing that out there, not sure if we even have the option of keeping him).

You have two somewhat similar players who both profile best in utility roles. One is better, but more expensive (and coming off an injury, and riding a 3 year decline in his skills, and 32). Isn't it best to go with the cheap guy since it's not the most important role on the team? If you can fill a better spot with that money, you have to do that.
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Everyone who?

Marlins fans on the whole love Amezaga. He's a fan favorite.

[Beef]

I think most Marlins fans LOVE that he is cute and really like the versatility he provides. I think you are using the "amazin" thing and the Bonifacio for Willingham thing so you can push the perception thing that doesnt need to be pushed.

[Bobbob1313]

And you don't think perception colors people's judgments of the two?

[Beef]

It colors most everyone's judgment of everything, no? It is an argument you love, so we shouldn't just keep it to these two lil fellas. I think your own perception of what people think and why they think it might be off. We know that most people are fucking dumb, so yes, some people are going to base what they think on super silly shit like Amezaga and Amazin sound similar so that is cool and Bonifacio took the Hammer away from us so that is reason to hate him.

I think it is just as likely that people are upset with Bonifacio because he fucking sucked. I don't hate him. It's not his fault we seem to have some very stubborn people in the front office who don't like to admit their own mistakes.

I also think a bunch of people would prefer Amezaga because he can play very good defense at a number of different positions and shouldn't do any worse offensively than a Bonifacio. That very good defense at a number of positions gives the team all sorts of options in different situations that are otherwise either not available or not as strong.

I think your original reasoning attempts to paint us all in the same light as a Maybin4Lyfe or whatever

[Metes]

My perception is that I feel 100% more confident putting Amezaga at any position late in a game than Bonifacio.

I really don't believe they are comparable players, because Bonifacio can't be depended on to do a lot of things, such as move from 2B to SS to CF throughout a game, thus allowing for PH/PR to be rotated in as necessary, or laying down a bunt when we need to move someone over.

[Bobbob1313]

I agree that Amezaga is better. Is he 600 k-1 mil better? I don't see any way he can be considered that, given that the role they play is (hopefully) minor. We're not going to make the playoffs with either playing every day, so saying that you feel more confident in Amezaga having to fill in every day is kind of pointless. They are both essentially worthless as everyday players.

Also, is there no chance that Boner outperforms Amezaga? I'd say it's at least even odds.

[Beef]

I think someone who sets odds would think setting even odds for that is silly, let alone AT LEAST even odds which I assume means you think it is more likely that Bonifacio outperforms Amezaga than vice versa.

[Bobbob1313]

It colors most everyone's judgment of everything, no? It is an argument you love, so we shouldn't just keep it to these two lil fellas. I think your own perception of what people think and why they think it might be off. We know that most people are fucking dumb, so yes, some people are going to base what they think on super silly shit like Amezaga and Amazin sound similar so that is cool and Bonifacio took the Hammer away from us so that is reason to hate him.

I think it is just as likely that people are upset with Bonifacio because he fucking sucked. I don't hate him. It's not his fault we seem to have some very stubborn people in the front office who don't like to admit their own mistakes.

I also think a bunch of people would prefer Amezaga because he can play very good defense at a number of different positions and shouldn't do any worse offensively than a Bonifacio. That very good defense at a number of positions gives the team all sorts of options in different situations that are otherwise either not available or not as strong.

I think your original reasoning attempts to paint us all in the same light as a Maybin4Lyfe or whatever

We are talking about two guys who aren't all that valuable. One guy is more valuable, but probably not so much more valuable, given the role you prefer to use them in, that he should make a significant amount of money more than him.

And yet one guy gets consistently shit on (as he should), while one guy's flaws (which do exist) are largely colored over. You tell me why this occurs when they aren't tangibly all that different, and they don't project to have such a dissimilar value to the team. You tell me what causes the perceptions to be the way they are.

Bonifacio does some things well, but I'm the only person in this thread who has said anything positive about him. Amezaga has numerous flaws, but I'm the only one who has been critical of him in this thread. Maybe I'm the one who is way off, it's certainly possible, but I see that people look at the two of them from vastly different viewpoints that aren't necessarily fair.
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I think someone who sets odds would think setting even odds for that is silly, let alone AT LEAST even odds which I assume means you think it is more likely that Bonifacio outperforms Amezaga than vice versa.

You're probably right. But I don't really think Amezaga is good for anything more than .650-.680 OPS, and I think Boner is more than capable of that in a limited role that puts him in a position to succeed (playing 2 times a week, mostly against RHP).

From an offensive standpoint, I think the two of them are more than likely going to be effectively a wash, given the same amount of PAs, because I do think Boner is a much better base runner.

So how much is 12 innings a week of great defense worth?

[Beef]

I think that the different viewpoints are probably more fair than you think and that you might be misunderstanding what those viewpoints are.