Astros @ Marlins Series Thread May 2017

[tjfla]

I'm pretty sure the Marlins pitching leading the league in walks allowed (and being 15 walks ahead of 2nd place) is the biggest thing to look at when it comes to the team's struggles. The lineup is league average which should be enough.

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And honestly in retrospect who cares about a top draft pick if your playoff window is so narrow? A top draft pick becoming Carlos Correa wouldn't happen for another 5-6 years after being drafted, which by that time would mean Stanton making $30 million a year, all the other salaries on the team skyrocketing, and a major league squad that looks very different from what it does now. Jansen in the pen would've allowed Ramos to take on some of those middle innings (not to mention Wittgren and Ellington being allowed to stay on the major league roster all season). I was on team Ziegler/Tazawa to start the year, but this team would be in a much more favorable position right now if they ended up getting Jansen in the offseason. This is a scenario where Loria's want for big name players would've actually paid off.

I've said before to you and everybody that the draft wins championships in today's game. And that is entirely true. But for every Yelich or Stanton pick there's a Josh Naylor, Colin Moran, Tyler Kolek, etc... Jansen would've brought sure results while who knows who that pick becomes in god knows when.

Also dunno what you want to do with the lineup. Give the team Rojas' production at SS all year and replace Dietrich's so-so effort with Prado and this offense is on the positive side of league average. Stanton also isn't putting up .900+ OPS numbers anymore which just can't happen. There's a lot of factors to have me understanding that this is an offense that isn't behind the losing this year.

The reason Houston is so good is they are willing to spend cash(draft/scouting) in order to improve the team- Jim Crane bought the team and tore it down. He hired guys who know baseball and told Astros fans they will suck for 5 years BUT will be great eventually.

They scout the DR/IFA amazing-stole Francis Martes from us,Paulino from Det then Crane lets them spend whatever it takes to get Top prospects every year. He spends the max amount every year and when he could spend more he did that too. Like 20 of Top 30 prospects they have are under 21 and IFA

Probably best in the league in scouting/IFA however they are Top 3 in drafting by taking advantage of the new drafting system. Other than Brady Aiken,they take the BPA on their board early and even try to save cash on the player. Carlos Correa don't forget was like maybe #7 overall player in 2012 but Houston got a deal on him which let them take McCullers,Rio Ruiz,Brett Phillips,Tucker.

As much as 99% of Marlins fans don't wanna hear this,we should follow the Houston plan when the new owners buy. Invest cash into the DR(upgrade the complex) and IFA,tank for 2/3 years and fill up the minor leagues. With picks allowed to be dealt now,u could easily get 5 picks in 1st 2 Rds. Get the 1st pick save some cash and get prospects. Trade EVERYTHING not named Yelich or JT. In the plan u can even keep a Yelich(much like Atlanta has done with Freddie Freeman or SD with Wil Myers) and if JT would sign a extension him to. By the time the rebuild is done they are both in prime of career

[fish16]

I'm pretty sure the Marlins pitching leading the league in walks allowed (and being 15 walks ahead of 2nd place) is the biggest thing to look at when it comes to the team's struggles. The lineup is league average which should be enough.

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And honestly in retrospect who cares about a top draft pick if your playoff window is so narrow? A top draft pick becoming Carlos Correa wouldn't happen for another 5-6 years after being drafted, which by that time would mean Stanton making $30 million a year, all the other salaries on the team skyrocketing, and a major league squad that looks very different from what it does now. Jansen in the pen would've allowed Ramos to take on some of those middle innings (not to mention Wittgren and Ellington being allowed to stay on the major league roster all season). I was on team Ziegler/Tazawa to start the year, but this team would be in a much more favorable position right now if they ended up getting Jansen in the offseason. This is a scenario where Loria's want for big name players would've actually paid off.

I've said before to you and everybody that the draft wins championships in today's game. And that is entirely true. But for every Yelich or Stanton pick there's a Josh Naylor, Colin Moran, Tyler Kolek, etc... Jansen would've brought sure results while who knows who that pick becomes in god knows when.

Also dunno what you want to do with the lineup. Give the team Rojas' production at SS all year and replace Dietrich's so-so effort with Prado and this offense is on the positive side of league average. Stanton also isn't putting up .900+ OPS numbers anymore which just can't happen. There's a lot of factors to have me understanding that this is an offense that isn't behind the losing this year.

What fucking playoff window? Just because the team gutted its farm system in what seems like nonstop win now moves doesnt mean there is any sort of playoff window. Not having 1 top prospect does not mean you have a playoff window. Adding a closer to the worst team in baseball does nothing besides lose your potential first round pick that will give you at least something in the farm system. Also, Josh Naylor is 19 in high A ball and is hitting .336 with a .934 OPS and still somehow has managed 5 steals at his size. Even if he is not a top prospect, we reached for him out of our own cheapness and then we traded him in a move that was obviously a horrific move the second it was announced.

This whole idea that we had this "window" is so ridiculous and it is just conflated from the idea that since we have decimated our farm system we must have some sort of playoff chance, when in reality we dont because this team is so poorly managed and is a poorly built team that invests in positions that normal teams have known for years are the easiest positions to find. There is also that whole buy high sell low thing that they do consistently but we dont need to get into that. Loria getting a guy like Jansen would be putting a dress on a pig. Not only would this team still be horrific, but it would have cost us our first round pick. We dont need to continue to get into this argument, im fully aware Loria is selling the team and doesnt care about that, but as a fan why the fuck would you want to invest in the easiest position to find, knowing it will cost you a first round pick when there will be different ownership/front office picking that pick, to add to a team that has no chance of winning this year.

The lineup needs to be overhauled. The individual pieces might be solid bats but they dont fit together in modern baseball to produce runs. And I think a lot of it stems from the fact that we have Gordon, Hech/Rojas/whoever, and the pitcher spot being blackholes every day along with a bunch of guys who make contact but dont hit for much power in Prado, Realmuto, and Yelich to an extent, and power bats that are ridiculously inconsistent in Bour, Stanton, and Ozuna. It comes together and creates a lineup of guys who might be ok players, but dont fit together to produce runs, which is the point of hitting. This team needs to obviously upgrade Hech, but Gordon is looking like someone who got paid way too early as well based off 1 good season that appears to be a severe outlier.

Either way, this team needs to find some way to add 1 more significant, and most importantly consistent, power bat or blow it up and take the long rebuilding process that teams like the Cubs/Astros have taken and sacrifice a few years while investing heavily in the draft/international free agency. I'd be perfectly ok with the latter. Sucking that badly stinks, but if there is a consistent plan behind it both financially and through the talk of the front office, im cool with that, because the other alternative is to soak in this mediocrity that has overwhelmed this franchise for 15 years now.

[tjfla]

What fucking playoff window? Just because the team gutted its farm system in what seems like nonstop win now moves doesnt mean there is any sort of playoff window. Not having 1 top prospect does not mean you have a playoff window. Adding a closer to the worst team in baseball does nothing besides lose your potential first round pick that will give you at least something in the farm system. Also, Josh Naylor is 19 in high A ball and is hitting .336 with a .934 OPS and still somehow has managed 5 steals at his size. Even if he is not a top prospect, we reached for him out of our own cheapness and then we traded him in a move that was obviously a horrific move the second it was announced.

This whole idea that we had this "window" is so ridiculous and it is just conflated from the idea that since we have decimated our farm system we must have some sort of playoff chance, when in reality we dont because this team is so poorly managed and is a poorly built team that invests in positions that normal teams have known for years are the easiest positions to find. There is also that whole buy high sell low thing that they do consistently but we dont need to get into that. Loria getting a guy like Jansen would be putting a dress on a pig. Not only would this team still be horrific, but it would have cost us our first round pick. We dont need to continue to get into this argument, im fully aware Loria is selling the team and doesnt care about that, but as a fan why the fuck would you want to invest in the easiest position to find, knowing it will cost you a first round pick when there will be different ownership/front office picking that pick, to add to a team that has no chance of winning this year.

The lineup needs to be overhauled. The individual pieces might be solid bats but they dont fit together in modern baseball to produce runs. And I think a lot of it stems from the fact that we have Gordon, Hech/Rojas/whoever, and the pitcher spot being blackholes every day along with a bunch of guys who make contact but dont hit for much power in Prado, Realmuto, and Yelich to an extent, and power bats that are ridiculously inconsistent in Bour, Stanton, and Ozuna. It comes together and creates a lineup of guys who might be ok players, but dont fit together to produce runs, which is the point of hitting. This team needs to obviously upgrade Hech, but Gordon is looking like someone who got paid way too early as well based off 1 good season that appears to be a severe outlier.

Either way, this team needs to find some way to add 1 more significant, and most importantly consistent, power bat or blow it up and take the long rebuilding process that teams like the Cubs/Astros have taken and sacrifice a few years while investing heavily in the draft/international free agency. I'd be perfectly ok with the latter. Sucking that badly stinks, but if there is a consistent plan behind it both financially and through the talk of the front office, im cool with that, because the other alternative is to soak in this mediocrity that has overwhelmed this franchise for 15 years now.

The Jeff Loria Playoff window. He aint blowing nothing up-his window is 2 years

Totally agree with u but don't use Josh Naylor as an example-he looked terrible here and is in the CAL(which is pretty much the same as FSL for pitchers) he should be killing the ball

[fish16]

The reason Houston is so good is they are willing to spend cash(draft/scouting) in order to improve the team- Jim Crane bought the team and tore it down. He hired guys who know baseball and told Astros fans they will suck for 5 years BUT will be great eventually.

They scout the DR/IFA amazing-stole Francis Martes from us,Paulino from Det then Crane lets them spend whatever it takes to get Top prospects every year. He spends the max amount every year and when he could spend more he did that too. Like 20 of Top 30 prospects they have are under 21 and IFA

Probably best in the league in scouting/IFA however they are Top 3 in drafting by taking advantage of the new drafting system. Other than Brady Aiken,they take the BPA on their board early and even try to save cash on the player. Carlos Correa don't forget was like maybe #7 overall player in 2012 but Houston got a deal on him which let them take McCullers,Rio Ruiz,Brett Phillips,Tucker.

As much as 99% of Marlins fans don't wanna hear this,we should follow the Houston plan when the new owners buy. Invest cash into the DR(upgrade the complex) and IFA,tank for 2/3 years and fill up the minor leagues. With picks allowed to be dealt now,u could easily get 5 picks in 1st 2 Rds. Get the 1st pick save some cash and get prospects. Trade EVERYTHING not named Yelich or JT. In the plan u can even keep a Yelich(much like Atlanta has done with Freddie Freeman or SD with Wil Myers) and if JT would sign a extension him to. By the time the rebuild is done they are both in prime of career

This. This. So much this. I say the same thing all the time, but the biggest change that will come from the new ownership will not be spending on the major league level, but it will be the change in investment into the minor league level.

[tjfla]

I got a laugh when they talked about Gourriel-he signed a 5/47.5 million deal. Gourriel is the guy who wanted to come to Miami and even reportedly would take less if the team would also sign his younger brother who signed a 7/22 million deal.

Jeff said OK and figured since he wanted to play here and would take less that meant like 5/20 million and his brother at like 3 million. He offers them something close to that and they laughed at him-they meant Yuli would take less like 25 million BUT his brother had to get 30 million too. Jeff pulled the offer and done.

[fish16]

The Jeff Loria Playoff window. He aint blowing nothing up-his window is 2 years

Totally agree with u but don't use Josh Naylor as an example-he looked terrible here and is in the CAL(which is pretty much the same as FSL for pitchers) he should be killing the ball

Who the fuck cares about Jeffrey Loria's idiotic take on things? Im not talking about what the mindset of the team is and what they are doing. We are all perfectly aware just how stupid this front office and ownership is and has been for years and how they have a completely misguided view on how close this team is and how terrible they are at making any kind of decision. Im talking about from the perspective of a fan of the team and judging realistically this teams chances of contending.

There is no window. This team has nothing special from a pitching perspective at the major or minor league level, gave Stanton Mike Trout money when he should have gotten Prince Fielder money, and have a couple other nice pieces in the lineup and that's about it. You could argue things would be different if Jose were alive, and they probably would, but that was already gone when the talk of signing closer's this offseason came up. The giving up of a first round pick for a closer on a terrible team is beyond terrible team building strategy. If we were a team like the nationals who are a closer away from being world series favorites, sure, go ahead, but we are a straight up terrible baseball team with no prospects on the way to speak of. So I really dont need you to tell me "this is jeffrey's plan." I know what Jeffrey's plan is. We all do. The less we can talk about it and just talk about what the team should be doing rather than what it has been doing the better.

And yes that is a hitter's league. He is also 19 in high A ball and is 2nd in the league in OPS, 2nd in slugging, 2nd in BA, in the top 10 in steals even though he missed a handful of games. He might not be special, but he is not yet a bust. And even giving him as an example of the volatility in first round picks is fucking pointless to begin with considering most considered him a 2nd round prospects and we reached for him because we are cheap as shit. Not to mention he would easily be our best hitting prospect by far.

[dim]

Any time fish16 goes on one of his rants this is all I picture

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[fish16]

Any time fish16 goes on one of his rants this is all I picture

[ATTACH=CONFIG]197[/ATTACH]

lol accurate except for being 23. but i have the soul of a 75 year old.

[tjfla]

Any time fish16 goes on one of his rants this is all I picture

[ATTACH=CONFIG]197[/ATTACH]

Hey now rays16 is a lawyer or something not an old man. Plus much like the Marlins he probably has gotten so used to that 1 cloud he can't stomach yelling at another one for 2 years!!

Even tho I can already see him in 2019 yelling about how bad the prospects we got in return for the players in the fire sale so that could be the next rant. Stanton only got us 2 Low A 23 yr old pitchers or Prado at 36 going into FA only got us a AAA RP who was out of options. My favorite tho will be what we get for Ozuna. We will never hear the end of that rant: We should have trade Ozuna in 2017 when the team sucked,we could have gotten 2 Top Prospect and 4/5 overall but we waited and teams aren't going pay the price now!!

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This. This. So much this. I say the same thing all the time, but the biggest change that will come from the new ownership will not be spending on the major league level, but it will be the change in investment into the minor league level.

Only issue now is they actually have rules on how much u can spend. Past few years,u could go crazy every 3 years as long as u were willing to spend x2. No more of that u can go 75% above 5 million and thats it. U hit the limit and u are done for the year its not like last summer when SD spent almost 100 million on the IFA market

[rmc523]

What fucking playoff window? Just because the team gutted its farm system in what seems like nonstop win now moves doesnt mean there is any sort of playoff window. Not having 1 top prospect does not mean you have a playoff window. Adding a closer to the worst team in baseball does nothing besides lose your potential first round pick that will give you at least something in the farm system. Also, Josh Naylor is 19 in high A ball and is hitting .336 with a .934 OPS and still somehow has managed 5 steals at his size. Even if he is not a top prospect, we reached for him out of our own cheapness and then we traded him in a move that was obviously a horrific move the second it was announced.

This whole idea that we had this "window" is so ridiculous and it is just conflated from the idea that since we have decimated our farm system we must have some sort of playoff chance, when in reality we dont because this team is so poorly managed and is a poorly built team that invests in positions that normal teams have known for years are the easiest positions to find. There is also that whole buy high sell low thing that they do consistently but we dont need to get into that. Loria getting a guy like Jansen would be putting a dress on a pig. Not only would this team still be horrific, but it would have cost us our first round pick. We dont need to continue to get into this argument, im fully aware Loria is selling the team and doesnt care about that, but as a fan why the fuck would you want to invest in the easiest position to find, knowing it will cost you a first round pick when there will be different ownership/front office picking that pick, to add to a team that has no chance of winning this year.

You do realize that it will still be Loria & Co. making that pick right? And maybe the next pick too, depending on when the sale is completed.

[tjfla]

Looks like Mike Hill is off of his year long vacation and doing work.

Peter O'Brien and Christian Colon were both DFA by KC. We claimed SS/2B/3B Christian Colon and DFA Lombardozzi.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/re...d=colon-001chr

He is 28 now but not a bad UT option plus keeps Dee away from SS

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You do realize that it will still be Loria & Co. making that pick right? And maybe the next pick too, depending on when the sale is completed.

Well hard to screw up this year's draft even tho they probably will. They like 5 guys-DL Hall,Trevor Rodgers,Austin Beck,Seth Romero,Shane Baz

Romero is likely off the list due to character/weight and Austin Beck is probably gone before #13. Baz wants ABOVE slot to not go to TCU,DL Hall wants slot and Rodgers is the cheaper option

Don't mind Jeff making 1st Rd picks,his problem is rest of the draft. He still thinks its 2008 when BPA in the 3rd Rd wanted 3 million to sign so he takes guys projected in Rd 12 in Rd 3 but sign them for slot still even tho now the BPA will also sign for slot cash

[fish16]

You do realize that it will still be Loria & Co. making that pick right? And maybe the next pick too, depending on when the sale is completed.

You are right idk why i was thinking it would be towards next years draft, but the point remains the same.

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Hey now rays16 is a lawyer or something not an old man. Plus much like the Marlins he probably has gotten so used to that 1 cloud he can't stomach yelling at another one for 2 years!!

Even tho I can already see him in 2019 yelling about how bad the prospects we got in return for the players in the fire sale so that could be the next rant. Stanton only got us 2 Low A 23 yr old pitchers or Prado at 36 going into FA only got us a AAA RP who was out of options. My favorite tho will be what we get for Ozuna. We will never hear the end of that rant: We should have trade Ozuna in 2017 when the team sucked,we could have gotten 2 Top Prospect and 4/5 overall but we waited and teams aren't going pay the price now!!

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Only issue now is they actually have rules on how much u can spend. Past few years,u could go crazy every 3 years as long as u were willing to spend x2. No more of that u can go 75% above 5 million and thats it. U hit the limit and u are done for the year its not like last summer when SD spent almost 100 million on the IFA market

We dont have enough assets to have a firesale, so you wont see me complaining about that. I wouldnt complain if the guys they got while investing heavily in the draft/IFA stink either as long as they show a willingness to spend much more on player development.

[Namaste]

Christian Colon: CHAMPIONSHIP

[Maddawg]

Anyone watching the Kohler shitshow tonight ?

[rmc523]

Watched about 5 minutes of it before he imploded completely.