Under New Management: The Jeter Group Transition Discussion

[tjfla]

I don't see why the front office would remain intact for a year. It doesn't take a year to put together a new regime. I have to think Jeter and the group have a list of candidates of who they want to hire at this point.

It doesnt but u cant hire anyone until the sale is done. So just say it goes to Nov then u have 1 month to figure it all out. Alot easier to just keep Mike Hill around and hire someone later

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A good point I didn't think of within my own comment about the terrible trades are that they were always made with money in mind - Loria wouldn't eat money to get better players back, both when selling and buying. So we'd often overpay for mediocre guys because he wouldn't pony up extra money to get impact players when buying.

Exactly. Mike Hill could be good or bad no one really knows. Hard to do a good job when your owner has to OK everything and refuses to include money OR always wants cash in return. From talks it seems Mike Hill is gone eventually when Jeter brings his people in

[fish16]

It doesnt but u cant hire anyone until the sale is done. So just say it goes to Nov then u have 1 month to figure it all out. Alot easier to just keep Mike Hill around and hire someone later

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Exactly. Mike Hill could be good or bad no one really knows. Hard to do a good job when your owner has to OK everything and refuses to include money OR always wants cash in return. From talks it seems Mike Hill is gone eventually when Jeter brings his people in

Hill sucks.Everything about this teams decisions on who to acquire, who not to acquire, who to draft, who to buy high on, who to sell low on tell you all you need to know. Having a crazy owner doesnt mean you have to acquire shit talent. I doubt Loria is telling him to go get Cashner immediately. Its more like go get a pitcher, and Hill chooses horrifically all the time. Loria sucks, but hill sucks too.

[tjfla]

Are other execs paid that much? Maybe guys like Theo that actually deserve it...

This may be a stupid question, but what's the difference with a GM and baseball operations? I always thought it was just a way to add more to the title.

Just add Mas to the group and call it a day...



I think it may depend on when the sale goes through/is finalized. If it's before/in time for the offseason, it wouldn't surprise me if they cleaned house from the beginning and brought in someone new. But if it happens later, I could see Hill & co. staying on. When the Dodgers were sold, they kept the existing front office for a few years before bringing in Andrew Friedman and the rest of them.

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Yeah, he just kind of seems to be "there" with Loria and Samson being the bad guys (should we start a rumor that Hill is actually responsible for all the fire sales and Loria desperately wanted to keep everyone but Hill did it anyway?).

I agree, though. I think the new ownership group would be best served to get rid of just about everyone associated with Loria's ownership, at least at the top/in the front office. Who knows, Hill might actually be competent at his job and just that limited/constricted by Loria to run things how they should be (draft, trades, free agents etc.), but he certainly hasn't done much in his time in charge.....terrible, questionable trades (even at the time, let alone now looking back) are perhaps the biggest red flag that come to mind. I've been waiting for Beinfest to get another GM job to see what he'd do under a real owner, but that hasn't happened yet.

Some execs are but they actually earn it. Samson does nothing except sit in his office,go to meetings and shake hands. He made NO decisions

President of Baseball Ops means in charge of baseball operations-anything that has to do with on the field product is run by him. Hire GM,scouts,scouting director,signs IFA,final say on everything.GM is like the same except runs day to day stuff. Talks trades,goes to meetings. Most teams usually have President of Baseball ops then VP of baseball ops/GM. In our system the FO is Jeff-Mike Hill so Mike Hill gets the title of President and GM BUT in real system like the Cubs its Theo(President of Baseball)Jed Hoyer(VP/GM) then 2 AGM and 2 directors.6 Top Level Guys

Our system is pretty funny. We actually have 7 VPs but none of them do anything,they are just given the title

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Like said in previous post it will likely be Jeter-Mike Hill for a few months till everything is settled then Jeter will go for someone off the NYY tree who will help him out. With that being said don't be surprised if u see us making some moves in the offseason. Derek Jeter is making ALL the decisions now.

Billy Eppler from LAA or Damon Oppenheimer from NYY Hire one of them to be VP of Baseball/GM(Jed Hoyer type who does all day to day stuff) and build from there. Jeter is NOT a scout type so expect someone he trusts that can scout and knows about the draft and IFA

I know they want Stan Meek gone as Scouting Director

2 things on Mike Hill-he is under contract till 2020 and he actually was a pretty good scout/player development guy in his day so no need to get rid of him like Samson who was worthless

[rmc523]

Hill sucks.Everything about this teams decisions on who to acquire, who not to acquire, who to draft, who to buy high on, who to sell low on tell you all you need to know. Having a crazy owner doesnt mean you have to acquire shit talent. I doubt Loria is telling him to go get Cashner immediately. Its more like go get a pitcher, and Hill chooses horrifically all the time. Loria sucks, but hill sucks too.

I disagree with you to an extent. Who to sell high on, I could agree with you, but honestly, every other component you mentioned is tied to money, which for Loria means it's not there.

Here's been the decision making process under Loria:

Acquiring guys - how much do they cost?
Selling guys - how much money can we save?
Draft - who can we sign for cheap (sure, everyone wants a good deal for the FO, but we take it to the extreme)?

Look at the Cashner deal you mentioned...

Most organizations would say, who can we target that:
1) will be an impact addition (good player)
2) won't cost our top prospects
3) #1 and #2, but also won't break the bank?

The Marlins approach is:
1) who's cheap/doesn't cost money
2) who cares what prospects we give.....Oh wait, you'll take on more of his salary??? hey, here we'll throw in this guy too!!!
3) Marlins fans! We were buyersssss!!!!!! We got player X that's been terrible for years, but we got him anyway! Yay us!

So back to the Cashner deal - no, I don't think Loria said "go get Cashner now!!" I think he said "we don't have any money (to get a real impact player), find someone and acquire them, I don't care about prospects."

The same goes for the other trades really - Loria says "let's go for it!" but won't spend money to acquire better players, the system is barren because he won't spend money in the draft or on international guys, and we've traded other guys away already - it's a never ending cycle because of constant ill-advised "go for it" moves that don't really add any value to the club.

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All that said, I'm not defending Hill. I want him to go, if anything so we don't have to hear him talk anymore (I'm sure he's a nice guy), but I think his hands have been tied to a point to where the "terribleness" of his moves can't be completely put on him. I thought the same about Beinfest. And that's not to say Hill doesn't deserve some responsibility either, he does.

[emkayseven]

Man, this all stinks of them not holding a fire sale, right?

If you want a fire sale, you want Samson to stay so that he's a public fall guy who can go spin to the media and then get fired in a year so the casual fans think something's being done. And you'd want Hill to go because the typical thinking is that GMs with ties to players make emotional decisions due to those ties. Doing the opposite suggests to me that maybe they aren't trading these guys.

I also have no problem with keeping Hill on - we don't really know what he is or does so it's impossible to judge him. And as I've said before (on twitter for sure - maybe here too), if we're going to give the FO crap for the bad move, we ought to give credit for things over the years like unearthing Uggla and Bour in the Rule 5 Draft, drafting an incredible half of a Major League lineup (JT, Yelich, Ozuna, Stanton), drafting Ramos in a late round, signing Yelich to a phenomenal deal, etc. It's easy to shit on this front office but someone somewhere was making those moves.

My gut tells me (and has always told me) that Loria is most active with 1st round draft picks and FA signings. We know he's active with FA (he personally met Reyes, found "special money" for Pudge, etc). It would seem he's active with first rounders because we always go with a value pick there. But when you look at the fact that we've had some nice picks further down, it makes me feel that maybe he doesn't care there because the money is lower.

I'm fine with keeping Hill or moving on from him, but it really does seem to me that keeping him on and canning Samson says they aren't going to sell off.

[rmc523]

Man, this all stinks of them not holding a fire sale, right?

If you want a fire sale, you want Samson to stay so that he's a public fall guy who can go spin to the media and then get fired in a year so the casual fans think something's being done. And you'd want Hill to go because the typical thinking is that GMs with ties to players make emotional decisions due to those ties. Doing the opposite suggests to me that maybe they aren't trading these guys.

I also have no problem with keeping Hill on - we don't really know what he is or does so it's impossible to judge him. And as I've said before (on twitter for sure - maybe here too), if we're going to give the FO crap for the bad move, we ought to give credit for things over the years like unearthing Uggla and Bour in the Rule 5 Draft, drafting an incredible half of a Major League lineup (JT, Yelich, Ozuna, Stanton), drafting Ramos in a late round, signing Yelich to a phenomenal deal, etc. It's easy to shit on this front office but someone somewhere was making those moves.

My gut tells me (and has always told me) that Loria is most active with 1st round draft picks and FA signings. We know he's active with FA (he personally met Reyes, found "special money" for Pudge, etc). It would seem he's active with first rounders because we always go with a value pick there. But when you look at the fact that we've had some nice picks further down, it makes me feel that maybe he doesn't care there because the money is lower.

I'm fine with keeping Hill or moving on from him, but it really does seem to me that keeping him on and canning Samson says they aren't going to sell off.

Unfortunately based on history, I'm trying to mentally prepare for a complete fire sale/tear down and a speech by Jeter talking about how they're going to completely rebuild from the ground up "the right way, the winning way, it'll take a few years, but then we'll be competitive year in and year out!! yadda yadda"

As I've said several times before (probably in this thread too), I just really worry about the perception of another firesale to the casual south Florida "fan." Jeter being part of the new ownership gives them immediate credibility, and I'm sure for the casual fan erases a lot of the ill-will toward the Marlins just because of his name, and perhaps more importantly, gives the casual fan a reason to give the team another chance. That said, those casual fans will need to see improvement, and a progressive steps toward yearly contention. I fear that them initiating a complete tear down will look like "same old Marlins" to that casual fan. People like all of us here on the board may understand what they're doing (but perhaps not like it), but this ownership group has an uphill battle to gain/regain the trust and support of South Florida. Dumping Samson helps with that too, by the way. But shooting themselves in the foot as one of their first moves seems like a mistake to me.

[tjfla]

Not the guy I would pick from the NYY tree but like said Jeter is going after guys he trust

Mark FeinsandVerified account
@Feinsand

Growing industry buzz that Gary Denbo (Yankees VP/Player Development) is a top candidate for Marlins GM job once Derek Jeter takes over.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/03/...-sweeny-murti/

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Man, this all stinks of them not holding a fire sale, right?

If you want a fire sale, you want Samson to stay so that he's a public fall guy who can go spin to the media and then get fired in a year so the casual fans think something's being done. And you'd want Hill to go because the typical thinking is that GMs with ties to players make emotional decisions due to those ties. Doing the opposite suggests to me that maybe they aren't trading these guys.

I also have no problem with keeping Hill on - we don't really know what he is or does so it's impossible to judge him. And as I've said before (on twitter for sure - maybe here too), if we're going to give the FO crap for the bad move, we ought to give credit for things over the years like unearthing Uggla and Bour in the Rule 5 Draft, drafting an incredible half of a Major League lineup (JT, Yelich, Ozuna, Stanton), drafting Ramos in a late round, signing Yelich to a phenomenal deal, etc. It's easy to shit on this front office but someone somewhere was making those moves.

My gut tells me (and has always told me) that Loria is most active with 1st round draft picks and FA signings. We know he's active with FA (he personally met Reyes, found "special money" for Pudge, etc). It would seem he's active with first rounders because we always go with a value pick there. But when you look at the fact that we've had some nice picks further down, it makes me feel that maybe he doesn't care there because the money is lower.

I'm fine with keeping Hill or moving on from him, but it really does seem to me that keeping him on and canning Samson says they aren't going to sell off.

Jeff wasn't really involved with the draft. Stan Meek did everything but knew Jeff didn't wanna go above slot for guys or pay more. He was very involved in FA signings and even trades(if they wanted to add money/big deal he had to OK it)

Reason we find Rule 5/lower draft guys is we actually have a pretty good scouting dept. The problem is the owner never gives them cash. They scout IFA guys and get guys for 100K(Ozuna,Urena) instead of 2 million because Jeff won't pay

As for Mike Hill,I wouldn't have any issue with him working in the scouting dept since he is under contract. The guy was pretty well regarded before he got here

[Maddawg]

Now if we can just replace Hill.........though at least with him, I think that is a transition role - he stays on because he knows the players/organization, and they'll bring in someone new in a year or two.

??? Two more years of shitty drafts ??? The guy DOESN'T know our players because who in thier right minds drafts so horribly year, after year, after year unless it's on purpose or you just don't know jack shit about talent evaluation.

Left to me, I make Samson stay as long as he licks the toilets & urinals at the stadium clean after each game, and has to say "I love Jeffrey Loria" before starts licking & install a pitch & dunk machine & Hill can be the dunkee.

[tjfla]

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/sp...171093362.html


In fact, a potential investor who was specifically briefed by the Bruce Sherman/Jeter group this summer said they spoke of a payroll being pulled back from $115 million to potentially as low as $55 million (if Giancarlo Stanton is traded) or $80 million to $85 million if Stanton is retained at $25 million next season.

8 guys(Stanton,Yelich,Gordon,Prado,Ziegler,Tazawa,Vo lquez-Hurt,Chen-Hurt by May) by themselves are costing 95 million

[flamarlins93]

If these new owners truly intend to drop the payroll back to the 55 million dollar range annually and be exactly like Loria unwilling to spend on the team and just look to put money in their own pockets then I am done. I have been a loyal fan since the team started in 1993 and would rather see them contract the team rather then let another owner run the team into the ground. Constantly trading players only looking to make an extra million or two at the expense of a fan base that deserves better. I love baseball it is my favorite sport but if this is how the new group intends to do things I am finished with baseball. I don't understand how MLB can allow them to be owners knowing this is their intention. I will give them the benefit of the doubt thru the winter but if things start going like its looking they are going to go then SCREW MLB AND THE MARLINS. I am finally done with this BS and these shitty owners owning the team. Looks like Loria may have gotten the final laugh and sold to someone as bad or worse then him.

[fauowls44]

First of all, the new ownership group hasn't said a word yet, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt until they actually speak publicly. Not that I doubt Barry Jackson's reporting, but this is just from one potential investor who isn't part of the group and apparently spoke to them months ago about joining it. The groups bidding changed so much, who knows what changed between that meeting and now. This story hasn't been well reported to say the least...so I'm going to wait until Jeter actually says what his plans are before freaking out about it.

Secondly, for all the hand-wringing about slashing payroll, are we even sure that is the wrong move here? I know it sucks and it will be bad PR, but unfortunately, Loria is leaving a serious mess to clean up. I would prefer not to go through a total rebuild, but ultimately, that may be what is required. Gutting the whole organization and starting over may be the best thing in the long run. A month ago, that is what everyone was calling for anyway. Then Stanton got hot and the team went on a nice streak and now we are back to being a few pieces away? That seems short-sighted. The problems that existed in May and June are still the same (and that is obvious given that they have now lost 6 of the last 7). This organization still needs to be fixed from top to bottom.

[Erick]

First of all, the new ownership group hasn't said a word yet, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt until they actually speak publicly. Not that I doubt Barry Jackson's reporting, but this is just from one potential investor who isn't part of the group and apparently spoke to them months ago about joining it. The groups bidding changed so much, who knows what changed between that meeting and now. This story hasn't been well reported to say the least...so I'm going to wait until Jeter actually says what his plans are before freaking out about it.

Secondly, for all the hand-wringing about slashing payroll, are we even sure that is the wrong move here? I know it sucks and it will be bad PR, but unfortunately, Loria is leaving a serious mess to clean up. I would prefer not to go through a total rebuild, but ultimately, that may be what is required. Gutting the whole organization and starting over may be the best thing in the long run. A month ago, that is what everyone was calling for anyway. Then Stanton got hot and the team went on a nice streak and now we are back to being a few pieces away? That seems short-sighted. The problems that existed in May and June are still the same (and that is obvious given that they have now lost 6 of the last 7). This organization still needs to be fixed from top to bottom.

Sure but a $55 million payroll? There are already a handful of bad contracts on the books for next year taking up approximately $55 million. How about cutting it down to the 80-90 range?

[fauowls44]

Agreed...$55 million seems low but who knows how accurate any of this actually is? I mean, there are still 2 other groups out there and an MLB vote apparently a few weeks away. Could someone be trying to put out this info to try and derail the bid? Not saying I think that's the case, but billionaires probably don't take losing well.

[Party]

Who cares if payroll is $100 million or $55 million if the team has to have an MVP performance from Stanton to win 80 games?

No one is going to come in and subsidize a perennial loser if people aren't showing up. It looks like it's going to be a very long process. Stanton having an MVP season works out whatever they decide to do. His value is at its highest or his season makes him untradable for PR reasons.

[Erick]

Who cares if payroll is $100 million or $55 million if the team has to have an MVP performance from Stanton to win 80 games?

No one is going to come in and subsidize a perennial loser if people aren't showing up. It looks like it's going to be a very long process. Stanton having an MVP season works out whatever they decide to do. His value is at its highest or his season makes him untradable for PR reasons.

Prado, Ziegler, Volquez, Tazawa, and Chen take up about $55 million next year. Take the sunk costs into account and the desired payroll is actually much less than $55 million. It's pathetic.