Spring Training thread

[tjfla]

I really think Rojas will be starting over Hech at some point this year, I hope I'm wrong, because that would mean Hech will be somewhat competent with the bat this year, but I really think it's inevitable that they'll try to see if they can get more production from Rojas.

If Mattingly had it his way Hech would already be gone and the cash would have went to a power bat. He prefers Rojas at SS however since the FO won't get rid of him he just keeps him at SS and lets Rojas play UT

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I think that's the price we've had to play for 1) as you mentioned, having an owner that thinks he knows best with baseball decisions, and 2) having a "yes man" overseeing our front office allowing #1 to happen. Additionally, he may just not be a good GM on his own, but I will admit it is hard to evaluate both Beinfest and Hill given the ownership situation they've had to deal with. Maybe they truly would've been better without ownership interfering with moves, who knows.

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I think that's the price we've had to play for 1) as you mentioned, having an owner that thinks he knows best with baseball decisions, and 2) having a "yes man" overseeing our front office allowing #1 to happen. Additionally, he may just not be a good GM on his own, but I will admit it is hard to evaluate both Beinfest and Hill given the ownership situation they've had to deal with. Maybe they truly would've been better without ownership interfering with moves, who knows.

Beinfest,DJ and Hill have been GM in name alone-all 3 were yes man who pretty much did what Jeff told them. They all do "minor" stuff like waiver claims and minors signing BUT the big stuff were OKed by Jeff.

U will see how different it is when Jeff sells and it goes from Owner to GM in name only. The investment group hires a President,VP,GM,AGM. We will go from the Dallas Cowboys to the Tigers/Cubs/Red Sox in 2 months

[rmc523]

If Mattingly had it his way Hech would already be gone and the cash would have went to a power bat. He prefers Rojas at SS however since the FO won't get rid of him he just keeps him at SS and lets Rojas play UT

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Beinfest,DJ and Hill have been GM in name alone-all 3 were yes man who pretty much did what Jeff told them. They all do "minor" stuff like waiver claims and minors signing BUT the big stuff were OKed by Jeff.

U will see how different it is when Jeff sells and it goes from Owner to GM in name only. The investment group hires a President,VP,GM,AGM. We will go from the Dallas Cowboys to the Tigers/Cubs/Red Sox in 2 months

I'd have been fine dumping Hech.

And yeah, that's my exact point with Beinfest, DJ, and Hill - it's hard to know how good they really were/could have been - because they were GM in name only, with Loria pulling the strings.

I can't wait for that transition to happen.

[fish16]

I'm sorry, but you cant blame it all on Loria. He sucks, yes, but he isnt doing dirty work as to which prospects to acquire in trades, how to value their own prospects/players, how to value other prospects/players. He might make the final call or OK trades, but he isnt the reason why we have committed terrible trade after terrible trade involving our own prospects, our own established players, other teams prospects, or other teams established players. That is just horrendous scouting and player development. Loria sucks, but our front office guys have been just as bad at what they do.

But yes, the day the announcement comes that Loria is no longer the owner will be an incredible day down here. I could be wrong and just completely misjudging the baseball market down here, but I think if an owner comes down here and shows he actually cares about winning, even if we are still a middle of the pack payroll team, this town could actually show a hell of a lot of support to the marlins. Just looking at the WBC, there is a market for baseball down here. Especially with the stadium in the middle of little havana, this team could really find a huge following if the fans can trust the ownership not to betray them anymore.

[The_Godfather]

I'm sorry, but you cant blame it all on Loria. He sucks, yes, but he isnt doing dirty work as to which prospects to acquire in trades, how to value their own prospects/players, how to value other prospects/players. He might make the final call or OK trades, but he isnt the reason why we have committed terrible trade after terrible trade involving our own prospects, our own established players, other teams prospects, or other teams established players. That is just horrendous scouting and player development. Loria sucks, but our front office guys have been just as bad at what they do.

But yes, the day the announcement comes that Loria is no longer the owner will be an incredible day down here. I could be wrong and just completely misjudging the baseball market down here, but I think if an owner comes down here and shows he actually cares about winning, even if we are still a middle of the pack payroll team, this town could actually show a hell of a lot of support to the marlins. Just looking at the WBC, there is a market for baseball down here. Especially with the stadium in the middle of little havana, this team could really find a huge following if the fans can trust the ownership not to betray them anymore.

Shit rolls downhill or something like that...seems true in this case. Loria is trusting these head of operations guys because they are yes men to him and his even worse son in law David Samson.

[rmc523]

I'm sorry, but you cant blame it all on Loria. He sucks, yes, but he isnt doing dirty work as to which prospects to acquire in trades, how to value their own prospects/players, how to value other prospects/players. He might make the final call or OK trades, but he isnt the reason why we have committed terrible trade after terrible trade involving our own prospects, our own established players, other teams prospects, or other teams established players. That is just horrendous scouting and player development. Loria sucks, but our front office guys have been just as bad at what they do.

But yes, the day the announcement comes that Loria is no longer the owner will be an incredible day down here. I could be wrong and just completely misjudging the baseball market down here, but I think if an owner comes down here and shows he actually cares about winning, even if we are still a middle of the pack payroll team, this town could actually show a hell of a lot of support to the marlins. Just looking at the WBC, there is a market for baseball down here. Especially with the stadium in the middle of little havana, this team could really find a huge following if the fans can trust the ownership not to betray them anymore.

That's fair, no, you can't put all the blame on Loria, and at a certain point, the various GMs just may not be very good at their jobs. However, at the same time, you have to wonder how many of the front office's decisions were made in the context of what Loria would approve. For example, do they make a trade of player A for player X and Y with the other team taking on player A's salary instead of a trade of player A for player X, Y, and Z and paying player A's salary because they think it's a good move, or because it's a directive of Loria to dump salary? In other words, it's possible Loria had a directive that moves should be made from a salary perspective rather than a true baseball standard and therefore the various GMs had to operate under that, and would've made different moves without that. Now whether that's the case, I don't know, but it's possible.

Scouting (to an extent), and especially player development can definitely be put on the front offices, though. I say to an extent with scouting because it depends on the particular player/move......scouting for the draft - as you have pointed out plenty of times - has to be looked at through the prism of Loria's cheapness.....we know signings in the draft are made on a cost perspective and whoever will sign for the least rather than taking the best player. There have also been moves that at the time were looked at as good baseball trades (the Cabrera deal and even the Toronto deal), but they didn't work out or are mixed.....maybe player development is to blame there.

Anyway, the point of all of this is to say no, Loria isn't solely to blame, but I think you have to judge the various GMs here through the "Loria prism," and it'd be interesting to see how any of them would fare as the GM of another organization without a Loria above them.

As for the baseball market here, yes, I agree/believe that Loria is a factor, and do truly believe that his departure alone would result in an increase of support for the franchise. Now that said, new ownership would have to prove to the market that they're in it for the long haul and won't follow the fire sale model that we've had since '98. Another factor is that this market supports a winner - if the team isn't winning, people don't come, so winning is needed here more than anywhere for support to grow. We're not the Cubs where people go whether they win or lose. That's also why I think they'd have to follow a Dodgers approach and spend a ton of money up front to field a competitive team/winner, while rebuilding the foundation in the minors over time in order to transitioning to a more cost effective roster filled with younger guys complimented by others. I think that's the only way they can show the market that it won't be business as usual by the Marlins.

[tjfla]

I'm sorry, but you cant blame it all on Loria. He sucks, yes, but he isnt doing dirty work as to which prospects to acquire in trades, how to value their own prospects/players, how to value other prospects/players. He might make the final call or OK trades, but he isnt the reason why we have committed terrible trade after terrible trade involving our own prospects, our own established players, other teams prospects, or other teams established players. That is just horrendous scouting and player development. Loria sucks, but our front office guys have been just as bad at what they do.

But yes, the day the announcement comes that Loria is no longer the owner will be an incredible day down here. I could be wrong and just completely misjudging the baseball market down here, but I think if an owner comes down here and shows he actually cares about winning, even if we are still a middle of the pack payroll team, this town could actually show a hell of a lot of support to the marlins. Just looking at the WBC, there is a market for baseball down here. Especially with the stadium in the middle of little havana, this team could really find a huge following if the fans can trust the ownership not to betray them anymore.

Actually u can. While he might not make the trades everything goes thru him-if we would take on salary we wouldn't have to give up decent prospects. Every other team gets solid ML on bad deals for peanuts however he insists on getting money in the deal which means u have to give up better prospects.

U said u are in law school or something right? U will learn that when a partner tells u to do something u do it-YES MAN!!! Its the same with our FO-Jeff says get Cashner and instead of saying NO lets try for Hellickson they overpay for Cashner-YES MAN!!!

One reason teams still deal with us is because they know the FO is lazy. They know if we call on a guy they should answer because they know that our FO will overpay to get someone that Jeff wants. U think Delpiano is gonna say Mr Loria we shouldnt trade a 18 yr old Rookie ball arm that a team wants for a vet? Hell no

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Its like the draft pick/IFA Cash Spots. Teams know we have no interest in them so they ask for them in return when talk deals with us. 95% of the teams in MLB have figured out the more money u have in the draft or IFA the better talent u get so try to get them so u can get talent. Jeff sees them as dead weight that he won't use

[tjfla]

Weird rotation

Volquez
Straily
Koehler
Chen
Conley/Urena/Nicolino

#5 Spot is who knows-Urena doesn't have options,Nicolino I would let throw in AAA(help confidence),Conley looked good as SP LY but terrible in ST so could go down to work on mechanics but could thrive in pen where we need a guy

[fish16]

It will be Conley to start the year IMO. If he struggles, they will send Nicolino down in the first month and can move him up if Conley's struggles continue. I think Urena has to be gone. Just get a bench bat for him and move on.

I also still have faith in Nicolino as a potential back of the rotation kinda guy.

[tjfla]

It will be Conley to start the year IMO. If he struggles, they will send Nicolino down in the first month and can move him up if Conley's struggles continue. I think Urena has to be gone. Just get a bench bat for him and move on.

I also still have faith in Nicolino as a potential back of the rotation kinda guy.

U wont get that for Urena,they will deal him for cash or some low level prospect which is why they want to keep him. U put Urena in at #5 and let Conley work on his mechanics either in the pen or send him down to AAA. The reason I say put him in the pen is he could be useful until he figures it out

Nicolino needs confidence which he can get in AAA

[Nick]

Conley's in the rotation I don't care what he's doing in the spring. He was easily our best starter outside of Jose last year.

[fish16]

U wont get that for Urena,they will deal him for cash or some low level prospect which is why they want to keep him. U put Urena in at #5 and let Conley work on his mechanics either in the pen or send him down to AAA. The reason I say put him in the pen is he could be useful until he figures it out

Nicolino needs confidence which he can get in AAA

You can 100% get a bench bat for Urena that is in the same position as him. There will be someone who is out of options who a team is looking to deal whose team thinks they can get something out of Urena.

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Conley's in the rotation I don't care what he's doing in the spring. He was easily our best starter outside of Jose last year.

This. His leash will be short if he continues to struggle early in the year, but there is 0% chance he doesnt at least make his first start or 2 in the rotation.

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On a side note, just checked the box score for our game tonight against the Nats. SP for them? Jacob Turner. Good times. Remember where I was when we traded Anibal and Infante and got him and another guy who I cant remember right now but who everyone thought was a good deal and my goodness we really need to stop trading with the Tigers.

Edit- It was Brantly and Brian Flynn. I had a feeling it was a catcher but was positive Rabelo was in the Miggy trade and couldnt remember Brantly. I actually liked Flynn and his stats when he was in the minors here but he never got it together here, so of course we gave up on him and he went on to have success with the Royals last year. His first full year here as a tall lefty started between AA and AAA he pitched 161 innings, 147/43 K/BB ratio, 2.63 ERA, 1.17 WHIP. Then the next year he struggled a little more in AAA, we give up on him, and he goes on to pitch 55 innings out of the bullpen for the Royals last year with a 2.6 ERA, 1.1 WHIP, and .190 BAA. With a .191 AVG and .585 OPS against lefties. He also fell through the roof of a barn a few weeks ago and broke his back but thats besides the point. Gotta love how many guys are out there like that from the marlins just giving up on guys with potential.

Do we have way more of those guys than the average team or is it just me?

Also Rob Brantly and Rabelo are great names from the past to die hard marlins fans. Any others from you guys?

[Namaste]

I just saw Mattingly's rotation and thoughts on #5.

My mind is totally blown that he's even dreaming of not having Adam Conley in the starting 5.

TOTALLY BLOWN

[Nick]

My hope is he's just sending a message to Conley to get his shit together.

[tjfla]

I just saw Mattingly's rotation and thoughts on #5.

My mind is totally blown that he's even dreaming of not having Adam Conley in the starting 5.

TOTALLY BLOWN

Well he wants him in the rotation but has said multiple times already that his mechanics are all screwed up and with Urena having to make the team they are considering what to do with him

The crazy thing is 3 Righties in a row. Mattingly like his R/L/R or L/R/L in rotation and the lineup.

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You can 100% get a bench bat for Urena that is in the same position as him. There will be someone who is out of options who a team is looking to deal whose team thinks they can get something out of Urena.

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This. His leash will be short if he continues to struggle early in the year, but there is 0% chance he doesnt at least make his first start or 2 in the rotation.

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On a side note, just checked the box score for our game tonight against the Nats. SP for them? Jacob Turner. Good times. Remember where I was when we traded Anibal and Infante and got him and another guy who I cant remember right now but who everyone thought was a good deal and my goodness we really need to stop trading with the Tigers.

Edit- It was Brantly and Brian Flynn. I had a feeling it was a catcher but was positive Rabelo was in the Miggy trade and couldnt remember Brantly. I actually liked Flynn and his stats when he was in the minors here but he never got it together here, so of course we gave up on him and he went on to have success with the Royals last year. His first full year here as a tall lefty started between AA and AAA he pitched 161 innings, 147/43 K/BB ratio, 2.63 ERA, 1.17 WHIP. Then the next year he struggled a little more in AAA, we give up on him, and he goes on to pitch 55 innings out of the bullpen for the Royals last year with a 2.6 ERA, 1.1 WHIP, and .190 BAA. With a .191 AVG and .585 OPS against lefties. He also fell through the roof of a barn a few weeks ago and broke his back but thats besides the point. Gotta love how many guys are out there like that from the marlins just giving up on guys with potential.

Do we have way more of those guys than the average team or is it just me?

Also Rob Brantly and Rabelo are great names from the past to die hard marlins fans. Any others from you guys?

Rob Brantly was actually a Top C prospect at the time of the deal.He could hit and was solid behind the plate then in 2013 he forgot how to do both.

Ya u could get an out of option bat for Urena but that doesn't do us much good. We have Destin Hood,likely 2 vets in AAA,Yefri Perez,Riddle who would be the same player. If u trade Urena u would be asking for a guy with options in return or low level prospects. See some of the Cubs trades the past few months. They got Alec Mills(same as Urena) for Donnie Dewees who is in A Ball that is the kinda deal we would do for Urena and Jeff would rather have Urena then some guy a few years away

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I like Urena's arm especially in the pen but after our signings there isn't a spot for him at all. We have a full pen in ML and AAA,Rotation in AAA even has depth with Nicolino,Gonzalez,Fife,Peters,Garcia. As long as they don't lose him for nothing,u can't be too pissed off. This is the reason u don't put guys on the 40 Man unless u need to(happened with Hand too) U burn the options and then u have to make tough choices.

Delpiano seems to have Jeff's ear since LY tho. Instead of getting a hard on over Dillon Peters and adding him to the 40 man only to get 1 start they sent him down they aren't burning an option they are being patient. Unless guys are TOP prospects and are needed,don't add them to the 40 man until they need to be

[fish16]

Well he wants him in the rotation but has said multiple times already that his mechanics are all screwed up and with Urena having to make the team they are considering what to do with him

The crazy thing is 3 Righties in a row. Mattingly like his R/L/R or L/R/L in rotation and the lineup.

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Rob Brantly was actually a Top C prospect at the time of the deal.He could hit and was solid behind the plate then in 2013 he forgot how to do both.

Ya u could get an out of option bat for Urena but that doesn't do us much good. We have Destin Hood,likely 2 vets in AAA,Yefri Perez,Riddle who would be the same player. If u trade Urena u would be asking for a guy with options in return or low level prospects. See some of the Cubs trades the past few months. They got Alec Mills(same as Urena) for Donnie Dewees who is in A Ball that is the kinda deal we would do for Urena and Jeff would rather have Urena then some guy a few years away

First off, saying a bench bat wouldnt do us much good and then naming Destin Hood, Perez, riddle, or any of the other minor league retreads we have who will be in AAA pretty much makes the point that we could use another bench bat. Urena wont do us much good either. I dont care if he is out of options, dont force him onto the team and continue to watch him be terrible like he has been just because we cant send him down. Im not saying let him go for nothing, but dont force him on the team. With Prado out for the first little bit of the season, we could definitely use a bench bat that could have some potential rather than yet another long reliever/#5 guy like Urena who stinks and will take a bullpen spot from a guy like Ellington or Wittgren. Obviously this is a moot point without knowing who is available around the league, but I think a younger bench bat is definitely possible to obtain from a team who thinks they can do something with Urena, who i have no doubt will become a dominant bullpen arm for another team who fixes his mechanics or something.

I fully expect us to force Urena on the team or get a lower level arm or bat like you say, but I dont think it is a stretch to be able to get a bench bat for him in the slightest.

Also, on the Conley thing, another reason why I think Mattingly wont actually leave him out of the rotation at least to start the year is because as bad as he has been, Tom Koehler has been even worse. Granted he has been in the rotation for a few years now so there is a little longer track record of success (can you call what Koehler's done success?) but I think you cant really explain one being in the rotation and the other not being in there, unless its just about Conley's long term potential.

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My rationale for the Urena thing btw is that we have done this with veteran bullpen guys who couldnt be sent to AAA in the past few years and it has destroyed our bullpen in the early season for no reason because we dont just want to lose a guy even though they arent good. Ill look through the stats from the past few years to try to find other names, but guys i remember being forced onto the team include Breslow, Edwin Jackson, Narveson from last year. I dont remember if Jackson or Narveson couldnt be sent down or what, but I distinctly remember them needing to keep Breslow and just wondering why we were so scared to lose a shitty pitcher.

I understand the rationale of not wanting to lose Urena, especially more so because he is a younger guy with potential, and he was a guy i was even really high on coming up through the minors, but I just really dont like knowingly forcing good players like Wittgren or Ellington down just for Urena. Especially wittgren, i dont get why he is not an automatic lock to make the team. I do understand the Urena thing though, and wont be all that annoyed if he makes the team cause there were times where he looked like he could be decent last year. I just dont get why he had great control coming up throughout the entire minor league system and cant throw strikes in the majors.

But on a side note, we actually had some good signs from some of our prospects in spring, for whatever that is worth. Anderson played great and put up very good numbers, would love to see him improve his power in AAA this year. Jarlin Garcia put up nice numbers in limited work. Dillon Peters held his own. After going through the numbers thats about it. Wow that is kind of depressing.