Spring Training thread

[tjfla]

I see what you're saying, I just cant put him over Stanton. But I understand the argument. Prado has grown on me a whole hell of a lot. It annoyed me 2 years ago when he couldnt really get it going until well after we were out of it which made that years numbers a lot more inflated than his actual impact, but watching him in the lineup last year everyday showed just what he brings. His stats will never be incredible, but his veteran influence, as much as i think stuff like that can be overrated, is incredibly important. He is a great consistent presence in the lineup on this team.

Also as an aside, JT Realmuto seems to not get the type of credit he deserves given how he performed last year. He doesnt bring much defensively, but his ability offensively out of the catcher position is very valuable. I might be completely off base because I havent done all that much research into the hitting performance of catchers around the league, but he has to be a top 5 hitting every day catcher.

I really like our lineup and think it has the chance to be really fucking good, I just think it is missing something. All the pieces individually are really nice, but for some reason we havent been able to combine really good hitting with scoring runs. A lot of it is due to Stanton missing time and then Bour going down last year which obviously exposed our lack of depth, but I think this lineup really needed just one more middle of the order impact run producing bat.

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Just going off your "blowing up the team" comment. I agree with those 2 guys as the main pieces to keep around along with Stanton because he is virtually untradable, but what exactly else is there to "blow up." We have a few guys in the lineup with varying value, specifically Ozuna and Bour, but what else is there really to deal off and start over again if we were to rebuild.

Im not disagreeing with you in any way, just saying that this team has been so poorly managed from a front office and ownership perspective, I dont know if blowing things up after this year would do much good. From a strictly team performance and not salary cutting standpoint, I would be of the opinion that rather than blowing it up and trading away non yelich, stanton, and JT guys, we would be much better off if we continue as is, obviously dealing a few guys, and just overhauling our scouting, drafting, and international investment strategies and seeing the returns from that over time and hoping that those strategical differences would make themselves apparent sooner rather than later to help the current "core" of talent that we have.

A bunch of our guys are solid players, but just might not have tremendous value in a rebuild. Pre-Jose I would have agreed with you. I was clamoring for the exact deal from the Red Sox that the White Sox got for Sale. I was incredibly high on Moncada and thought he was the piece to go after if we traded Jose, but now that he's unfortunately gone, I just dont see a major rebuild being the correct move. We dont really have that one piece that will allow us to get a huge haul to really make a rebuild and complete sell off worth it.

Obviously we have the whole year to see where the direction of the franchise should go, but I think it would be wiser to keep building around JT, Yelich, Stanton, Gordon, Prado for a couple more years, and maybe seeing if we can get a front line starter for guys like Dietrich, Ozuna, Ramos, Bour or through free agency. Then with incoming better ownership (eventually), thoughtful free agent additions, and a less cheap draft and international spending strategy, hopefully we can add to those guys just by virtue of not being as cheap in those avenues.

Not sure if I worded that well enough to articulate my thoughts on a possible blow up vs staying the course, but hopefully I did.

Blow up meaning other than about 5 guys(Yelich,JT,few arms) if a team called and offered anything I would get rid of them. No ideas yet since no clue who is left from the groups who Jeff is talking to BUT if I bought the team I would start from the ground up like SD has done. U get actual baseball guys in the FO and let them do their job. Stanton could be dealt to LAD,LAA or even SD. Honestly SD in 2 years might have some very nice prospects(think Boston)-u won't get many of them because of the contract but I would take 1 or 2 really good ones

The thing about Prado and Gordon is 2 years from now what will they be and Ozuna will want a crazy contract

By way that is why Boston got Sale so easy-they already planned on dealing Moncada and Koepech plus more for Jose whether was this offseason or next

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What do we think about Dillon Peters? Seems to have had a really good season last year between Jupiter and Jacksonville and having a good spring training so far. Chance he makes the rotation, what about the bullpen?

Urena has been terrible so far this spring. It'll be interesting to see what they do with him.

They are putting Locke on the DL so Urena is pretty much a lock to make the team. They dont wanna lose him and Wittgren/Ellington have options and other are on AAA deals. The issue with Urena is no one knows what he is. Sometimes he can get thru the order 2 times(5 innings) then other times he has issues getting thru 2 batters. He will end up in SD/Cincy as a RP and look great just watch. This was the same issue they had with Luis Castillo which is why they were ok with him in deals. Big arm but body to skinny and some thought RP who could start but wouldnt go long

Peters is likely in AA/AAA this year. No point in putting him in the pen-we already have about 6 lefty RP in AAA and Jarlin Garcia has been mentioned too. Wish they would take more "Peters types" in the draft tho-take a guy who had to get TJ or needs it later in the draft and go slow. He was a 3rd Rd Talent that fell to 10th. Instead they take guys who should be 10th Rd guys in Rd 3(cheaper) and they are crap.

[Nick]

I don't care what happens with Locke, you've gotta do what you can to trade Urena. The last place he's going to be successful as is a long reliever. Get what you can out of him and slot Nicolino in as long reliever, who I believe is well-suited for that role.

[emkayseven]

I saw Peters pitch a few times in Jax and was very impressed with what I saw.

[tjfla]

Prado hurt in WBC. Lucky we have so many options to play 3B

Says hamstring tweak but we never do good with injuries

By way Prado was playing LF-what a crazy idea!!! They really should have asked this board first cause 99% would have laughed at or shit on the idea.

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I saw Peters pitch a few times in Jax and was very impressed with what I saw.

Just no point to rush him,let him get innings and next year compete. Start in Jax and if looks great u bring him to AAA. My fear would be we are .500 at trade deadline and Jeff trades him for a power bat like Frenchy or another arm that is a FA

Rotation is set with Urena,Nicolino,Gonzalez,Garcia,Phelps,Locke all able to start

[rmc523]

Prado hurt in WBC. Lucky we have so many options to play 3B

Says hamstring tweak but we never do good with injuries

By way Prado was playing LF-what a crazy idea!!! They really should have asked this board first cause 99% would have laughed at or shit on the idea.

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Just no point to rush him,let him get innings and next year compete. Start in Jax and if looks great u bring him to AAA. My fear would be we are .500 at trade deadline and Jeff trades him for a power bat like Frenchy or another arm that is a FA

Rotation is set with Urena,Nicolino,Gonzalez,Garcia,Phelps,Locke all able to start

Hamstring tweak for us usually means double knee surgery is actually needed.

[fish16]

Blow up meaning other than about 5 guys(Yelich,JT,few arms) if a team called and offered anything I would get rid of them. No ideas yet since no clue who is left from the groups who Jeff is talking to BUT if I bought the team I would start from the ground up like SD has done. U get actual baseball guys in the FO and let them do their job. Stanton could be dealt to LAD,LAA or even SD. Honestly SD in 2 years might have some very nice prospects(think Boston)-u won't get many of them because of the contract but I would take 1 or 2 really good ones

The thing about Prado and Gordon is 2 years from now what will they be and Ozuna will want a crazy contract

By way that is why Boston got Sale so easy-they already planned on dealing Moncada and Koepech plus more for Jose whether was this offseason or next

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They are putting Locke on the DL so Urena is pretty much a lock to make the team. They dont wanna lose him and Wittgren/Ellington have options and other are on AAA deals. The issue with Urena is no one knows what he is. Sometimes he can get thru the order 2 times(5 innings) then other times he has issues getting thru 2 batters. He will end up in SD/Cincy as a RP and look great just watch. This was the same issue they had with Luis Castillo which is why they were ok with him in deals. Big arm but body to skinny and some thought RP who could start but wouldnt go long

Peters is likely in AA/AAA this year. No point in putting him in the pen-we already have about 6 lefty RP in AAA and Jarlin Garcia has been mentioned too. Wish they would take more "Peters types" in the draft tho-take a guy who had to get TJ or needs it later in the draft and go slow. He was a 3rd Rd Talent that fell to 10th. Instead they take guys who should be 10th Rd guys in Rd 3(cheaper) and they are crap.

I hate that we choose out of options bad players for players that have proven they should be on this roster. I hate that they get shafted because they have options remaining. Wittgren should be in the majors. Ellington has poor control but he should be too if the choice is losing Urena or not having him up there.

I think Urena can be some sort of major leaguer, but its not gonna be here. Try to trade for for a bench depth piece and get your best relievers up here to start the year. We have done this several times in previous years and its blown up in our faces because, well, no shit its going to blow up in our face, we are actively choosing to keep a worse team.

[tjfla]

I hate that we choose out of options bad players for players that have proven they should be on this roster. I hate that they get shafted because they have options remaining. Wittgren should be in the majors. Ellington has poor control but he should be too if the choice is losing Urena or not having him up there.

I think Urena can be some sort of major leaguer, but its not gonna be here. Try to trade for for a bench depth piece and get your best relievers up here to start the year. We have done this several times in previous years and its blown up in our faces because, well, no shit its going to blow up in our face, we are actively choosing to keep a worse team.

With the DL now 10 days guys with options are alot more valuable then before. If Urena is sucking u can always say blister or dead arm let him figure stuff out and call one of them up. Ellington/Wittgren will start in NOLA but should be up alot

Well they are little more cautious then in past thanks to Brad Hand(even tho we have had guys picked off for years). It has to do more with the FO being lazy then anything,teams with actual GM's(Oak,Toronto,Seattle,SD,Cubs) DFA a guy means trading them for something u can develop. DFA for us means see ya cause if u sneak thru u aren't really in plans anyway and we will release u or trade u for cash

[fish16]

With the DL now 10 days guys with options are alot more valuable then before. If Urena is sucking u can always say blister or dead arm let him figure stuff out and call one of them up. Ellington/Wittgren will start in NOLA but should be up alot

Well they are little more cautious then in past thanks to Brad Hand(even tho we have had guys picked off for years). It has to do more with the FO being lazy then anything,teams with actual GM's(Oak,Toronto,Seattle,SD,Cubs) DFA a guy means trading them for something u can develop. DFA for us means see ya cause if u sneak thru u aren't really in plans anyway and we will release u or trade u for cash

I just checked Brad Hand's numbers from last year. Holy shit lol. I dont mind the Hand thing though cause we tried for literally like 5 years with that guy at the major league level and he just could not throw strikes. Him and countless other examples of guys who couldnt throw strikes here moving on to a second team and being great there are why I think this team needs a full minor league staff and scouting department overhaul.

We pick bad players in the draft, save money, dont coach them up or develop them properly, then misjudge their talent ability just because we have no developmental ability, then trade them or give them away for nothing where they go on to develop into solid players with their new teams. Happened with Grant Dayton too.

My single biggest complaint with the front office is their inability to recognize market inefficiencies and buying low and selling high on relief pitchers. We have had countless opportunities to sell high on relievers and we consistently fail to do so. Just in the last few years we've traded Cishek and Capps while their value is at its lowest, and have failed to trade Ramos when we have a plethora of relievers and a clear need at starter.

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On a side note, Carter Capps is soon to debut in spring for the Padres. Nice friendly reminder that we threw him into a deal as a throw in a year after he was being talked about at the deadline as a guy who could net us Greg Bird or Aaron Judge from the Yankees.

[tjfla]

I just checked Brad Hand's numbers from last year. Holy shit lol. I dont mind the Hand thing though cause we tried for literally like 5 years with that guy at the major league level and he just could not throw strikes. Him and countless other examples of guys who couldnt throw strikes here moving on to a second team and being great there are why I think this team needs a full minor league staff and scouting department overhaul.

We pick bad players in the draft, save money, dont coach them up or develop them properly, then misjudge their talent ability just because we have no developmental ability, then trade them or give them away for nothing where they go on to develop into solid players with their new teams. Happened with Grant Dayton too.

My single biggest complaint with the front office is their inability to recognize market inefficiencies and buying low and selling high on relief pitchers. We have had countless opportunities to sell high on relievers and we consistently fail to do so. Just in the last few years we've traded Cishek and Capps while their value is at its lowest, and have failed to trade Ramos when we have a plethora of relievers and a clear need at starter.

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On a side note, Carter Capps is soon to debut in spring for the Padres. Nice friendly reminder that we threw him into a deal as a throw in a year after he was being talked about at the deadline as a guy who could net us Greg Bird or Aaron Judge from the Yankees.

Cishek was about $. They tried to trade him but didnt like the offers so they kept him. Then started sucking and with his salary they dumped him for something. Capps was about the injury,they think his arm will blow out again

The issue with guys like Hand,Dayton and others(pitchers AND position) is they didn't manage them properly in the minors. They get a 23 yr old like Dayton and 2 years later he is still in Jupiter. WHY?? Instead of signing some 29 yr old for AA move him up and see how he does. I will say tho they did trade Dayton for a guy in Reed with much more talent-problem is Chris Reed didn't like baseball

I dont mind if they take 23/24 yr olds in the draft,my issue is why are they still in A Ball 2 years later? If u are 25 u should be in AA at least

2 future guys WE will mess up on

http://www.milb.com/player/index.jsp...ching/2016/ALL

http://www.milb.com/player/index.jsp...ayer_id=595145

It doesn't help tho that we thought every pitcher was a SP. Delpiano atleast has figured out to try guys at RP(Garcia) but all this has to do with NO Front Office. Jeff and Mike Hill could care less about the minors or the draft. They tell Stan Meek to run the draft(predictable-big arms from OK,MO,TX/loves OF who are athletes/projects) and whoever before Delpiano to do whatever they want. Delpiano least cares but until we get an actual FO it won't change

[rmc523]

On a side note, Carter Capps is soon to debut in spring for the Padres. Nice friendly reminder that we threw him into a deal as a throw in a year after he was being talked about at the deadline as a guy who could net us Greg Bird or Aaron Judge from the Yankees.

Along with tjfla's comment, MLB also made Capps' delivery illegal this offseason (you have to drag your foot, not hop like Capps does), so I'd be concerned about him transitioning away from the delivery that made him successful. Maybe he'll be fine, but you don't know.

[tjfla]

Along with tjfla's comment, MLB also made Capps' delivery illegal this offseason (you have to drag your foot, not hop like Capps does), so I'd be concerned about him transitioning away from the delivery that made him successful. Maybe he'll be fine, but you don't know.

Delivery or not-it had more to do with his arm. The team doctors thought it was only a matter of time till his elbow went or least had lots of arm injuries. This was a reason they tried to get Bird or Judge for him. They couldn't then his arm went(like predicted)

Our doctors suck at rehab but have a solid record of prediction recurring injuries. See Henderson Alvarez/Nathan Evoladi. Even Jose had a few questions but they weren't too concerned with him.

[rmc523]

Delivery or not-it had more to do with his arm. The team doctors thought it was only a matter of time till his elbow went or least had lots of arm injuries. This was a reason they tried to get Bird or Judge for him. They couldn't then his arm went(like predicted)

Our doctors suck at rehab but have a solid record of prediction recurring injuries. See Henderson Alvarez/Nathan Evoladi. Even Jose had a few questions but they weren't too concerned with him.

Oh I'm not saying delivery was their primary concern, but I'd imagine the Padres wouldn't be too excited about that rule being put in place.

[fish16]

Oh I'm not saying delivery was their primary concern, but I'd imagine the Padres wouldn't be too excited about that rule being put in place.

Ya obviously. My point wasnt specifically about Capps, it was about this teams inability to recognize market inefficiencies, recognizing when the proper time to buy low and sell high is, misjudging and developing their own talent, and misjudging and developing other teams talent. Ive said this a lot, but just because Loria is a cheap piece of shit doesnt mean we automatically should be as bad and dysfunctional as we have been since 2003. There are ways around that absurd cheapness that can allow a cheap team like us to win, but we dont do it. Now a lot of that might be due to Loria continually interfering in the baseball operations, but I think it is just as much a product of our front office being terrible as it is Loria being a terrible owner.

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Also, Prado out for opening day with a grade 1 hamstring strain. If it is actually a grade 1 strain, he should be back shortly after opening day, but knowing the marlins incredible ability to misjudge injuries, he actually has a leg that needs to be amputated and his career is over.

Dietrich would presumably take over at 3b the first week.

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Just catching up on spring stats, not that they mean anything. But how long are we going to keep going with Hech if he continues to show 0 improvement as a hitter. At what point do we give up on him? 4 straight years since he's been here with under a .690 OPS, and last year he was absolutely horrific the entire year with the bat. He is great defensively obviously, but he doesnt have power, speed, plate discipline, or any positive offensive trait. Rojas has been on fire in spring training (and yes, its spring training, i know) and is really good defensively himself.

To me Hech is a guy who needs to be in the AL if he is to play every day. With Hech and the pitcher the bottom of our lineup has been so horrifically bad by itself, let alone when we get injuries or the days the backup C plays.

Not saying Rojas is anything, more so wondering at what point we pull the trigger on Hech and get rid of him and start over at SS.

[Nick]

I really think Rojas will be starting over Hech at some point this year, I hope I'm wrong, because that would mean Hech will be somewhat competent with the bat this year, but I really think it's inevitable that they'll try to see if they can get more production from Rojas.

[rmc523]

Ya obviously. My point wasnt specifically about Capps, it was about this teams inability to recognize market inefficiencies, recognizing when the proper time to buy low and sell high is, misjudging and developing their own talent, and misjudging and developing other teams talent. Ive said this a lot, but just because Loria is a cheap piece of shit doesnt mean we automatically should be as bad and dysfunctional as we have been since 2003. There are ways around that absurd cheapness that can allow a cheap team like us to win, but we dont do it. Now a lot of that might be due to Loria continually interfering in the baseball operations, but I think it is just as much a product of our front office being terrible as it is Loria being a terrible owner.

I think that's the price we've had to play for 1) as you mentioned, having an owner that thinks he knows best with baseball decisions, and 2) having a "yes man" overseeing our front office allowing #1 to happen. Additionally, he may just not be a good GM on his own, but I will admit it is hard to evaluate both Beinfest and Hill given the ownership situation they've had to deal with. Maybe they truly would've been better without ownership interfering with moves, who knows.

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Ya obviously. My point wasnt specifically about Capps, it was about this teams inability to recognize market inefficiencies, recognizing when the proper time to buy low and sell high is, misjudging and developing their own talent, and misjudging and developing other teams talent. Ive said this a lot, but just because Loria is a cheap piece of shit doesnt mean we automatically should be as bad and dysfunctional as we have been since 2003. There are ways around that absurd cheapness that can allow a cheap team like us to win, but we dont do it. Now a lot of that might be due to Loria continually interfering in the baseball operations, but I think it is just as much a product of our front office being terrible as it is Loria being a terrible owner.

I think that's the price we've had to play for 1) as you mentioned, having an owner that thinks he knows best with baseball decisions, and 2) having a "yes man" overseeing our front office allowing #1 to happen. Additionally, he may just not be a good GM on his own, but I will admit it is hard to evaluate both Beinfest and Hill given the ownership situation they've had to deal with. Maybe they truly would've been better without ownership interfering with moves, who knows.