The Marlins and the Future of Starting Rotations

[Erick]

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-m...ing-rotations/

[emkayseven]

Exactly what I've been saying all offseason. Can't find starters, find guys who go 5 solid innings and then bridge to the back end.

[Nick]

It's crazy guys like Ellington and Wittgren aren't even mentioned in that article.

You have to think Urena gets cut don't you? It sucks but I don't think we'll have a choice. Maybe we'll be able to deal him.

[rmc523]

It's crazy guys like Ellington and Wittgren aren't even mentioned in that article.

You have to think Urena gets cut don't you? It sucks but I don't think we'll have a choice. Maybe we'll be able to deal him.

I have to imagine someone would want him.....unless they just wait until the typical Marlins move of dumping him for nothing.

[Swifty]

Still think that the "bullpen day" is not feasible without larger rosters or the presumption you are fine blowing out an arm or two over the course of the season. You can't have four guys expected to get you 9 innings 32 times a season and then pitch half of them in between the five day starts (you have to use them otherswise you risk overuse of the other 3 or 4 bullpen arms). It's really only feasible if they go to 28 or 30 man rosters.

[fish16]

Am i the only one who finds it weird how consistently underrated Wittgren has been throughout his entire career, including when he was coming up in the minors? He's obviously not a starter so that limits it somewhat, but he has been great literally everywhere he has been with us. He is one of the guys who i weirdly have the most confidence in in our bullpen.

[AdamRavs]

It's crazy guys like Ellington and Wittgren aren't even mentioned in that article.

You have to think Urena gets cut don't you? It sucks but I don't think we'll have a choice. Maybe we'll be able to deal him.

If we would deal Ramos.. Ellington and Wittgren would be mentioned. There is no reason to hang on to Ramos with the guys we have and what we need.

[emkayseven]

Still think that the "bullpen day" is not feasible without larger rosters or the presumption you are fine blowing out an arm or two over the course of the season. You can't have four guys expected to get you 9 innings 32 times a season and then pitch half of them in between the five day starts (you have to use them otherswise you risk overuse of the other 3 or 4 bullpen arms). It's really only feasible if they go to 28 or 30 man rosters.

That's not what we're talking about here. No bullpen day - just a bullpen bridge. Still a 5 man rotation, but the game plan (so to speak) is for those guys to go 5 innings, turn it over to some combination of the four 6/7 inning guys, then to some combination of the four 8/9 inning guys. That's not an issue because

a) you're not going to be in every game after 5 innings, and on those days you either leave the starter in or have someone perform mop-up duty (or, if the starter is pulled early, you have a multi inning mop up guy)
b) your starter may be pitching lights out, in which case you leave him in longer
c) you don't need to rely on the same guys each and every day

[rmc523]

Marlins acquired Severino Gonzalez for cash or PTBNL from the Phillies. He was designated for assignment when they signed Michael Saunders.

The 24-year-old Gonzalez has shown intriguing K/BB numbers in his 66 MLB frames (8.5 K/9 against 1.9 BB/9), but he owns an ugly 6.68 ERA. He has always shown excellent control in the minors, and did boast 35 strikeouts and a 3.13 ERA over his 36 innings last year at Triple-A after shifting to a full-time relief role.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/0...-gonzalez.html

[Swifty]

That's not what we're talking about here. No bullpen day - just a bullpen bridge. Still a 5 man rotation, but the game plan (so to speak) is for those guys to go 5 innings, turn it over to some combination of the four 6/7 inning guys, then to some combination of the four 8/9 inning guys. That's not an issue because

a) you're not going to be in every game after 5 innings, and on those days you either leave the starter in or have someone perform mop-up duty (or, if the starter is pulled early, you have a multi inning mop up guy)
b) your starter may be pitching lights out, in which case you leave him in longer
c) you don't need to rely on the same guys each and every day

Isn't that kind of what goes on now with teams with suspect back of the rotations and an above average bullpen? I thought that the author's point was a designated bridge for the 5th day. If it's just 5 innings and pray for a lead, yeah, cool, welcome to the Astros of the mid 2000's.

[dim]

Am i the only one who finds it weird how consistently underrated Wittgren has been throughout his entire career, including when he was coming up in the minors? He's obviously not a starter so that limits it somewhat, but he has been great literally everywhere he has been with us. He is one of the guys who i weirdly have the most confidence in in our bullpen.

I have loved the guy since he was at Jupiter (I knew of him as a closer at Purdue but didn't follow him then). The fact he wasn't getting people out with electric stuff did throw people off for a long time though.

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I do think down the line there should be experimentation with how rotations are done. I'd still love to see a team put together a team of one elite 'ace' starter who pitches as normal, and the other four days you have two starters go 3-4 innings each (so essentially an ace and 8 other 'half-starters' with a bullpen of 4 relievers). Obviously this Marlins team couldn't do that, and a lot of major league teams wouldn't benefit from it because they built solid starting rotations. For Miami though, I'd have to believe the numbers are that most starters do better in their first few innings of work (which makes sense since that'll be when their best stuff is). The team has a bunch of guys who I think can be successful in 3 inning bursts but anything beyond it you're asking for trouble.

There's a lot of different "styles" that you can handle a rotation that can be built based on the team that you have around you. If there was ever a season for the Marlins to experiment with new techniques, this would definitely be it. There's just about no way the team can reasonably compete with the rotation they have, but they have a top tier bullpen. Traditionally this team is likely sunk in 2017. If there was a way to enhance the abilities of the bullpen and extend them beyond the usual innings amount while limiting the amount of work our starters do, that would probably improve the team's win total.

I dunno, definitely just spit-balling here. I know we talked about it earlier but it's obviously a discussion that's gonna take a long time before something really happens. I do think there's something real with the idea of changing how things work.

[fish16]

I have loved the guy since he was at Jupiter (I knew of him as a closer at Purdue but didn't follow him then). The fact he wasn't getting people out with electric stuff did throw people off for a long time though.

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I do think down the line there should be experimentation with how rotations are done. I'd still love to see a team put together a team of one elite 'ace' starter who pitches as normal, and the other four days you have two starters go 3-4 innings each (so essentially an ace and 8 other 'half-starters' with a bullpen of 4 relievers). Obviously this Marlins team couldn't do that, and a lot of major league teams wouldn't benefit from it because they built solid starting rotations. For Miami though, I'd have to believe the numbers are that most starters do better in their first few innings of work (which makes sense since that'll be when their best stuff is). The team has a bunch of guys who I think can be successful in 3 inning bursts but anything beyond it you're asking for trouble.

There's a lot of different "styles" that you can handle a rotation that can be built based on the team that you have around you. If there was ever a season for the Marlins to experiment with new techniques, this would definitely be it. There's just about no way the team can reasonably compete with the rotation they have, but they have a top tier bullpen. Traditionally this team is likely sunk in 2017. If there was a way to enhance the abilities of the bullpen and extend them beyond the usual innings amount while limiting the amount of work our starters do, that would probably improve the team's win total.

I dunno, definitely just spit-balling here. I know we talked about it earlier but it's obviously a discussion that's gonna take a long time before something really happens. I do think there's something real with the idea of changing how things work.

Ya, to me the most important thing a bullpen guy has is control and command. I can not stand bullpen guys who can not consistently throw strikes. That's why Mike Dunn drove me bat shit crazy. WHIP for relief pitchers are one of the most important basic stats. Relief pitchers with a WHIP above 1.2 or so are nothing special and are incredibly easy to find. Wittgren has consistently throughout his entire career had low WHIP's and has never walked many guys. He can be a great closer without electric stuff, which isnt easy to do but is definitely valuable.

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Im not sure about the rotation idea though. I think that that style of rotation building works great over the course of a playoff run to overcome a lack of starting pitching depth, but i dont think that will work over the course of an entire season. I think the bullpen guys would get taxed way too much. Cant know unless you dont try, however.

[Erick]

Ya, to me the most important thing a bullpen guy has is control and command. I can not stand bullpen guys who can not consistently throw strikes. That's why Mike Dunn drove me bat shit crazy. WHIP for relief pitchers are one of the most important basic stats. Relief pitchers with a WHIP above 1.2 or so are nothing special and are incredibly easy to find. Wittgren has consistently throughout his entire career had low WHIP's and has never walked many guys. He can be a great closer without electric stuff, which isnt easy to do but is definitely valuable.

I disagree with this. I think WHIP is rather overrated, and Wittgren definitely shouldn't be a closer. He's a solid middle reliever, but definitely not top-tier.

[fish16]

I disagree with this. I think WHIP is rather overrated, and Wittgren definitely shouldn't be a closer. He's a solid middle reliever, but definitely not top-tier.

WHIP for relievers is definitely not overrated. One of the better stats to determine how good relievers truly are as far as basic stats go.

[tjfla]

It's crazy guys like Ellington and Wittgren aren't even mentioned in that article.

You have to think Urena gets cut don't you? It sucks but I don't think we'll have a choice. Maybe we'll be able to deal him.

Urena will be DFA and likely claimed by SD. They dont really trade guys they DFA

As for Wittgren and Ellington don't be surprised if we see them alot more than people think especially with a 10 Day DL now. U can put SP who are struggling on it with a blister or whatever,move Locke into the rotation and call one of them up OR if a RP is struggling put one of them on the 10 Day and call Wittgren or Ellington up

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Marlins acquired Severino Gonzalez for cash or PTBNL from the Phillies. He was designated for assignment when they signed Michael Saunders.



http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/0...-gonzalez.html

Best part about Gonzalez is he is still optionable. So we can stick him in NOLA