Cameron Maybin Thread: Maybin Some Discussion, Maybin Some Fighting, It's All Good!

[Bobbob1313]

How does "Look what he's done since he's been up" equate to "picking just his best two weeks"?

He was bad in April. Has anyone disagreed with that ever? No. But you (Swift, since this is a digression from the game thread) are the only person who thinks he's destined for complete and utter failure (except for some morons over at MB) because of 231 (HOLY SHIT THAT'S LIKE NOTHING) PAs in his career. I'd like you to find me 5 players who, at his age, put up the numbers he did at the minor league level and failed to be even average MLers.

Whatever he should be based on what we gave up for him is irrelevant. If he's merely good, we shouldn't be pissed because of what we gave up. We should be happy that we have a good CFer.

[Bingebag]

He's a sunk cost. What could have been doesn't matter at this point. I totally agree bob2x.

[dgriot]

I agree that who was given up for Maybin is irrelevant in tracking his progression/development. I don't agree with the idea that the organization is immune from criticism, especially if Maybin ends up being merely good/okay/whatever.

[Fish and Chips]

trading miggy and expecting to get a younger, cheaper miggy is stupid, Miguel Cabrera dont grow on trees

[BigGameFish]

I water my Miguel Cabrera tree everyday

[Madman81]

trading miggy and expecting to get a younger, cheaper miggy is stupid, Miguel Cabrera dont grow on trees

we bad news bear

[FishFanInPA]

trading miggy and expecting to get a younger, cheaper miggy is stupid, Miguel Cabrera dont grow on trees

Trading Miggy and getting a shitty catcher, a potentially shitty lefty and an OF who is still waiting for his potential to hit isnt a good idea.

[Namaste]

nevermind

[Swifty]

Sure, some of my disdain for Maybin (at the moment) stems from the fact that he was part of the worst return imaginable for a player of Miggy's caliber earning what he figured to earn in '08.

My total lack of faith in Maybin, however, derives directly from Cameron himself. I don't know what one promising thing anyone has seen from him. I'm being serious. He doesn't put on a show in BP (Carroll does though). He doesn't gun people down on the base paths, his defense in center is alarmingly average for someone as fast as he. His mechanics in the box suck, his eye might be worse, he literally just punishes mistake pitches. Sure he can grow into his frame but he still doesn't elevate the ball consistently, nor does he square the ball up well (or for that matter, make consistent contact). And what's worse, his approach sucks. He gets himself into pitchers counts by almost swinging on the first pitch and whenever he's behind in the count, he happily obliges the pitcher by going after breaking stuff on the outer half. He's so messed up it's crazy for someone to look at it and say "oh, this guy is going to get it right, quickly."

Does he have a chance to be an above average major league player? Sure, I guess everyone does, but I don't see it as inevitable. Great players don't have that much fundamentally wrong with them. Hanley needed to fill out before he became a true power threat; Beltran needed to start going the other way more; Maybin needs to hit the ball. There's something really really wrong when this superstar in waiting can't put together a 3 line drive day to save his life. Forget 3 hits, 3 line drives.

But then you guys have it all figured out, if we just hang around and wait until he's 27 to become a so-so player, it's awesome because he plays centerfield. Forget the fact that if we didn't trade Miggy and just held him and let him walk for 2 draft picks we'd have gotten more out of that trade and played in just as many playoff games (who knows, perhaps more).

It's not fair to ask Maybin to be Miggy, that's why we got 5 other players along with him, it is fair to ask a "prodigy" to not look overmatched at the big league level.

[lou]

Sure, some of my disdain for Maybin (at the moment) stems from the fact that he was part of the worst return imaginable for a player of Miggy's caliber earning what he figured to earn in '08.

My total lack of faith in Maybin, however, derives directly from Cameron himself. I don't know what one promising thing anyone has seen from him. I'm being serious. He doesn't put on a show in BP (Carroll does though). He doesn't gun people down on the base paths, his defense in center is alarmingly average for someone as fast as he. His mechanics in the box suck, his eye might be worse, he literally just punishes mistake pitches. Sure he can grow into his frame but he still doesn't elevate the ball consistently, nor does he square the ball up well (or for that matter, make consistent contact). And what's worse, his approach sucks. He gets himself into pitchers counts by almost swinging on the first pitch and whenever he's behind in the count, he happily obliges the pitcher by going after breaking stuff on the outer half. He's so messed up it's crazy for someone to look at it and say "oh, this guy is going to get it right, quickly."

Does he have a chance to be an above average major league player? Sure, I guess everyone does, but I don't see it as inevitable. Great players don't have that much fundamentally wrong with them. Hanley needed to fill out before he became a true power threat; Beltran needed to start going the other way more; Maybin needs to hit the ball. There's something really really wrong when this superstar in waiting can't put together a 3 line drive day to save his life. Forget 3 hits, 3 line drives.

But then you guys have it all figured out, if we just hang around and wait until he's 27 to become a so-so player, it's awesome because he plays centerfield. Forget the fact that if we didn't trade Miggy and just held him and let him walk for 2 draft picks we'd have gotten more out of that trade and played in just as many playoff games (who knows, perhaps more).

It's not fair to ask Maybin to be Miggy, that's why we got 5 other players along with him, it is fair to ask a "prodigy" to not look overmatched at the big league level.

Johan Santana trade was much worse. And the Marlins had to get rid of Willis for value at the same time which eliminates any "but Santana made more money" argument. It's not going to be bad the second Maybin is a legit starter and Miller eats 180.

And I love dumping on 22 year olds. Great stuff. It's beyond discussion at this point, just be prepared to take your lumps next year if/when it comes together.

[Sashimi]

It may turn out to be a colossally shitty return in hindsight (I have my doubts about Maybin, too), but at the time it was hard to argue that we did not get perhaps the best deal the market would yield. Both Miller and Maybin were consensus top 10 or 20 prospects in the game, with Maybin cracking most prospect wonks top 5. Before that the Angels were the most serious suitors for Miggy and, by all accounts, were not all that accommodating (most of the talk centered around Kendrick, Mathis and maybe a Saunders or Santana) and certainly were not offering prospects as highly rated as Maybin and Miller. I would have loved to have gotten Kershaw from the Dodgers, but again by all indications the Dodgers did not have him on the table.

And, of course, our hand was hurt by the fact that we had very little leverage since everyone knew we could not keep Miggy. We gained a little leverage by shopping him that offseason because at least then we could make a credible threat that we would just go to arbitration with him and keep him one more season...keeping him beyond that was not credible.

[Swifty]

Lou, saying he's going to be good at 22 is like saying I'm going to be as successful as Peter Angelos because I'm in law school and like baseball.

I just can't understand what you see in him that's encouraging. I don't want to know what his WARP or PECOTA or ZAP or BLAMMO is, I'm not saying this in a crusty old school kind of way but he looks fucking awful. His swing is fucking awful and he only hits (and I use hit lightly) mistake pitches. That isn't encouraging. Not at all.

[lou]

Because I don't base things on a sample size of a few weeks in the majors at 21-22 years old. Or really at all for young players in general.

Chris Coghlan Pre-All Star Break, 230 PA .245/.342/.335 (.667)
Cameron Maybin Career, 225 PA .250/.325/.373 (.697)

Fuck.

Just saying. I don't suspect Maybin will have a .950+ OPS like Coghlan has had his next 250 PA, but it takes time to adjust to MLB pitching. Fuck the heck? I care about his back to back .850 OPS years in levels advanced for his age.

[Bobbob1313]

I mean, you're judging him based on when he was absolutely awful in April and then the last two weeks, when he's simply been not bad (and hasn't looked as retarded as you make him sound. Because you really make him sound like a retard going in the box swinging like a dead salmon.).

What do I see? I see a guy who has performed at every level in the minors and has shown some flashes of being a Mike Cameron type of player.

If you watched Dan Uggla's worst month, you would think he's absolutely worse than Cameron Maybin. Shit, if you just watched a month's worth of an average at bats from Uggla, you're overwhelming image of him would be someone completely lost at the plate who only hits mistakes. We can play this game with anyone who isn't a completely elite player.

Yeah, he's looked a lot more bad than good, but to pretend there is no good there is completely ridiculous. He's got good speed and I really don't see how you can say he doesn't square up the ball. Just today, you wrote him off because he hit a really hard hit grounder that the SS made a play on. That's how this whole fucking conversation started! And then you say his eye is worse than "suck". In his admittedly limited at bats this season even with his struggles he has an isolated discipline of .086. Only Hermida and Uggla have better ones on our team right now. For his career in the minors it's .089. So, you're wrong and just making shit up because you hate the guy.

You know what BJ Upton's OPS was through his first like 360 ABs? .660. He looked just as bad as Cameron Maybin and yet somehow, he managed to not be a fucking retard in the batter's box his whole career. Amazing how these things work. If you want, I can keep bringing up examples like this for you to completely ignore. Gary Sheffield at 23? 1100 PAs, .690 OPS!

You've compared him in the past to Preston Wilson, which just goes to show how little you actually understand about comparing players or judging talent.

[Swifty]

Bob, I really think you need to take a step back. I was right about Nolasco, people yelled at me, but suddenly people slunk away and conceded that. I was right about Dontrelle, I don't see anyone saying "yep Swift, you were right again." I got on the Uggla bandwagon ridiculously early, I got behind Hanley and Willingham. I backed Encarnacion (sorry) I called the Volstad demise before anyone else was willing to concede it.

I think I fucking know what I'm looking at. Thanks buddy. And, Sheffield is not a fair comparison, it took a league change and a move from his parent club to get him hitting .330, it took a position change to get him to be a fringe HoF player. He also was stuck in the majors, to stay for all intents and purposes, at 19. And you know what else, Maybin isn't Sheffield, Maybin isn't Upton, Maybin is Cameron fucking Maybin. That you look at him as just a number and Sheffield and Upton as just numbers screams how fucking stupid you are. It's not just the OPS he puts up it's how he fucking does it. He doesn't hit the ball hard, he doesn't hit line drive, he just hits worm burners. That he's 22 years old and putting up an OPS in the 600s doesn't mean it has to turn into an 800 OPS at 25 or a 1000 OPS at 29. That he can't hit a fucking major league pitch consistently hard is a bigger fucking problem than him being 22 years old. I don't care how old or young you are, if this is your fucking job and you're meant to be fucking good at it YOU SURE AS SHIT BETTER HIT THE FUCKING BALL ON A LINE. God fucking dammit I hate people like you that just reduce it to a fucking number and because someone else 20 fucking years ago struggled and became a Hall of Famer it makes it alright. Look at the fucking game once and a while and tell me what you see in an approach. In May you were breaking down the numbers on Nolasco, in September, suck my fucking ass bob you were wrong. In June it was Volstad, suck my ass again, you were wrong. I want Maybin to be good, I want all these guys to be good, I want to fucking win but open your fucking eyes, his approach sucks and there's nothing fucking encouraging about that. I see a guy who plays like that and I just think "he's been really really lucky."