Could Some of Our Relievers Be Starters?

[lou]

I'm not sure how I feel about trading Prado.

On one hand, his plate discipline has deteriorated so much the past couple of years and so has his power this year. It's hard to see him hitting a 100 OPS+ again considering that. So sell while you still can.

On the other hand, he's still a solid regular with his defense and good enough bat.

And if you get a cost controlled bat that's close to a sure thing, then it's definitely harder to say no. But that's easier said than done. I'm not a big fan of Peterson (His offensive numbers come from hitter's paradises and, IIRC during the draft, he's expected to move to 1b), but he's also just a name to use.

- - - - - - - - - -

Also, dumping Morse, going to 90m, and signing two SP and that team looks so, so much sexier.

Sigh.

Right. Assuming they could get a young 3B, whoever that may be, probably worth moving Ramos/Prado/Haren for salary purposes sooner rather than later and devoting it to an ace SP next year. They could field the team for $80 if they are really smart about it (as hypothetically suggested above). Which was what I was getting to. I'm just musing out of the box because Ramos is probably insanely valuable right now, and at the end of the day why not move him: "because relievers." An $80 million salary would be 28th "highest" in baseball on 2015 numbers. That's pretty crazy adding a $20 million Greinke/Cueto to this team.

I mean, it would be great if they just had a $100 payroll in 2016 and just added an ace/good bench and kept Prado/Ramos. That would be nuts. That would be 22nd-23rd in baseball in 2015 salary numbers. Pretty reasonable overall, and moving forward, they'd have a lot of money off the books post 2016 (Prado, Morse, Salty, Dunn, one of Phelps/Koehler will total $33.5 million in 2016 salary as crazy as that number is!!!) so internal raises for Stanton, Yelich, Ozuna, Gordon, Hech, Cosart, etc. won't hurt that much.

It's the same shit as we've all discussed the last 10 years. The salary shape is fucking awesome for this team, and if the clowns just approve a payroll 20-24th overall in baseball and don't sit bottom 3, they can fix their holes and field a team that looks really fucking good. Just like this season, they are going 90% of the way and not going for that final piece on paper (i.e., "Shields" this year).

Frustrating.

At least we aren't Oakland with a +9 run differential and 13 games under .500.

[Jay]

The more I think about it the more I like trading Prado. And this isn't even considering getting that future 3B back by ditching Haren/Prado/Ramos.
Say we package Haren and Prado to a contender tomorrow, what would the return look like in terms of pitching?
This leaves a hole at third but the organization currently has Dietrich and Cox (how is their defense at third?) who have been doing great against righties and then Rojas who has been doing great versus lefties and is excellent with the glove. All 3 are under club control. This gives half a season to evaluate if this platoon would be productive enough on a contender in 2016. If it fails we still have Ramos as a trade chip for the winter (his value will only drop if he starts blowing saves) and there are multiple third base free agents that could be considered. (Spot on the 25 man roster is opened up by trading or DFA Solano. It would be a problem when Morse comes back though.) DJ has shown he's willing to work with a platoon so maybe it was just Redmond being an idiot? If we can ditch Morse as a pure salary dump move it would be awesome.

[nny]

I'm very anti trading Prado if a 3B isn't coming back from something.

Dietrich and Cox are not actual answers. Both are terrible defensive players that should be 1B and neither even hit all that well. Rojas will probably not hit enough to warrant a starting position. They're all cool possible bench players but they are not starters, and we've got nothing else in our system besides those three.

Zobrist is literally the only FA of interest. And if you're signing Zobrist, you might as well keep Prado and sign another starter.

- - - - - - - - - -

We talk all the time of trading Ozuna for a SP, but there's also trading him for a 3B. Move yelich to CF and it's a lot easier to find somebody who can match Prado's production in LF than it is at 3B.

Assuming Yelich can handle CF (I don't see why not since most of his MILB time was in center)

[Jay]

I know Dietrich plays out as a bad defensive player at third especially but didn't know Cox did. And all have drastic righty-lefty splits this year with Rojas the only one who hit lefties well. I was only suggesting a platoon between them and that allows late inning defensive substitutions with Rojas.

As for FA, I'd consider Aramis Ramirez an option depending on the deal he's willing to take. And yeah we should bring a third baseman back in a deal but that deal might not be the one with Prado and that third baseman shouldn't have to be MLB ready. You're eliminating so many potential trades that improve the club by having to include that piece in the deal. For this year, Cox/Dietrich and Rojas platoon would be fine considering the season is lost anyways. If they're found productive, the organization might only need someone 2 years from now. If you can get a club controlled starting pitcher that profiles as a number 3 or better (MLB ready by opening day 2016 at the latest) for Haren and Prado, you wouldn't make the trade?

[rmc523]

Aramis is retiring after this season (2015).

I think his point with wanting a 3B coming back is that it's nice for this team to finally have someone at 3rd that can actually play the spot well and not be a black hole offensively, defensively, and/or both. Granted, he's only signed through next year, but even so, who's out there for us to go get next year if you trade Prado? Zobrist was mentioned, and I think a lot of us would love to see him here, given he can play all over if needed, but that's an IF you sign him. Beyond that, what is there? (I'm genuinely asking, I don't know), but for me it's nice to not have a black hole or a "lets throw this kid here and see what happens (to have nothing good happen)" situation for a change.

If there weren't so much starting pitching on the market this offseason, it might be a different story to want pitching back, but with so many arms available (you have to imagine we sign someone good....hopefully) that they can potentially sign, the odds of ending up signing a pitcher you want seem greater than thos of signing someone like Zobrist who has fewer comparables on the market.

[Jay]

Ok so say we trade Haren/Prado/Ramos for a 3rd baseman at the deadline. What are the thoughts on moving Koehler into the closer role with the intention of keeping Phelps and him on the roster next year?

[lou]

Aramis is retiring after this season (2015).

I think his point with wanting a 3B coming back is that it's nice for this team to finally have someone at 3rd that can actually play the spot well and not be a black hole offensively, defensively, and/or both. Granted, he's only signed through next year, but even so, who's out there for us to go get next year if you trade Prado? Zobrist was mentioned, and I think a lot of us would love to see him here, given he can play all over if needed, but that's an IF you sign him. Beyond that, what is there? (I'm genuinely asking, I don't know), but for me it's nice to not have a black hole or a "lets throw this kid here and see what happens (to have nothing good happen)" situation for a change.

If there weren't so much starting pitching on the market this offseason, it might be a different story to want pitching back, but with so many arms available (you have to imagine we sign someone good....hopefully) that they can potentially sign, the odds of ending up signing a pitcher you want seem greater than thos of signing someone like Zobrist who has fewer comparables on the market.

Not just SP available, but with what the team has. They have these years of control left:

2 - Alvarez, Phelps
3 - Fernandez, Koehler
4 - Cosart, Hand
6 - Nicolino, Urena

That's a lot of years, even if half those guys are #4/5 innings eaters and they trade 1-2 this offseason which is likely. It's pretty nice going into 2016 with Fernandez, Alvarez, Cosart, and Koehler/Phelps/Nicolino/Hand as a pretty legitimate 1-3-4-5 rotation, and likely 1-2 of them in the bullpen to be a de facto 6th/7th SP.

They are committed to everyone in the field besides 1B and 3B, and given they have some hope at 1B with Bour/cheap FA/Naylor, and absolutely nothing at 3B, just makes sense that 3B is the biggest need area to grow with the team.

My rational here is Loria is going to cap payroll at $80-85 range. If that's the max, and they want to contend, they simply need a massive SP behind Fernandez and the only way to do that is to clear salary. Best bets are Prado and Haren ASAP, bonuses if they can get rid of Latos, Cishek, or Morse somehow, and potentially Ramos as he just may be overvalued right now as a reliever with 3 years of control.

I'd rather have a 3B situation next year of "young heir apparent guy acquired for Ramos/Haren/Prado", Dietrich, and a veteran 3B bench presence, if it means getting someone like Greinke. That's just better than keeping Prado and getting a ho-hum $10 million a year veteran SP.

[Erick]

Ok so say we trade Haren/Prado/Ramos for a 3rd baseman at the deadline. What are the thoughts on moving Koehler into the closer role with the intention of keeping Phelps and him on the roster next year?

Why are you so desperate to trade Ramos all of the sudden?

[Jay]

Why are you so desperate to trade Ramos all of the sudden?

I'm not. I didn't even bring up the idea initially. But you know in order to get high value back, you need to give up some value. I'll be desperate to trade Ramos come 2016 offseason.

[Erick]

I'm not. I didn't even bring up the idea initially. But you know in order to get high value back, you need to give up some value. I'll be desperate to trade Ramos come 2016 offseason.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I wonder if Dietrich could be an alternative at 3B with a right-handed platoon bat. I think it was last Spring Training that Dietrich was given a shot at 3B (before Casey McGehee became a thing), and Dietrich was making some good plays. At the time, there were some thoughts that he'd be better at 3B than 2B, although I don't know if that's the case.

[Jay]

Yeah, that makes sense.

I wonder if Dietrich could be an alternative at 3B with a right-handed platoon bat. I think it was last Spring Training that Dietrich was given a shot at 3B (before Casey McGehee became a thing), and Dietrich was making some good plays. At the time, there were some thoughts that he'd be better at 3B than 2B, although I don't know if that's the case.

I just brought this up like 2 days ago. Rojas would make a good platoon partner as he also fits the late inning defensive replacement role too. My post also specified Cox as an alternative option to Dietrich. I mean both of them have been killing right handers this year.

- - - - - - - - - -

I'd actually really like to see Dietrich get some starts versus righties over Prado when he returns.

[Erick]

I just brought this up like 2 days ago. Rojas would make a good platoon partner as he also fits the late inning defensive replacement role too. My post also specified Cox as an alternative option to Dietrich. I mean both of them have been killing right handers this year.

- - - - - - - - - -

I'd actually really like to see Dietrich get some starts versus righties over Prado when he returns.

Baker's played some 3B, hasn't he? I was thinking about him as the right-handed bat.

[nny]

Pretty sure Dietrich doesn't need a platoon. Hasn't his numbers always been pretty equal?

The problem is defense. -20 DRS/150 and -15 UZR/150. He would need to hit a LOT to make up for that. I know it was scoffed at in the off season, but I honestly think he should be viewed more as a 1B.

[HUGG]

vL
.248/.330/.406 MiLB
.227/.256/.413 MLB

vR
.291/.365/.530 MiLB
.221/.308/.406 MLB

[Jay]

Baker's played some 3B, hasn't he? I was thinking about him as the right-handed bat.

Baker's already at first currently. He's also a FA at the end of the year.

Pretty sure Dietrich doesn't need a platoon. Hasn't his numbers always been pretty equal?

The problem is defense. -20 DRS/150 and -15 UZR/150. He would need to hit a LOT to make up for that. I know it was scoffed at in the off season, but I honestly think he should be viewed more as a 1B.

OPS difference vs righty - lefty in minors
2015 .161
2014 .383
2013 -.049
2012 .240
2011 .025
2010 .200
career majors .044

Hugg did a better job.