Could Some of Our Relievers Be Starters?

[Erick]

Considering how mediocre the starting rotation is, I was wondering what everyone thought about this and how it would work. I know Dyson started out as a starter and could probably do it. What got me thinking this though was actually AJ Ramos. I am surprised he's always been a reliever. You could make a case that Ramos has better stuff than any one of our current starters. Is it a durability issue? In terms of stuff, he has an above average fastball with a wicked slider and changeup. A lot of times when relievers can't be starters, it's because they have an issue with splits, but Ramos is equally good against righties and lefties.

I feel like Ramos and Dyson could be starters on this team and I think they'd do just as well, if not better, than the starters on the team now.

Maybe something to think about next Spring Training as this usually doesn't happen in the middle of the year.

What does everyone think?

[HUGG]

Ramos has never started as a professional (he started 1 game in Jax on rehab assignment, pitched his 1 inning to start the game) and he sucked as a starter in college. I really don't see that as a viable option.

Dyson was effective as a starter in AA/AAA (2.99era 3.50fip) in 2013, but he also only struck out 4.8 per 9. His stuff plays way, way up as a reliever.

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Although, he only struck out 4.4 per 9 as a reliever in AA in 2012, so maybe there's something else to his huge increase in K rate.

He's also had a lot of arm issues dating back to college, so maybe it was regaining full strength and such.

[Jay]

I think there is a long list of guys we have to try out as starters before next season and I'd keep these guys as relievers. I guess you could try Dyson but the rotation will look different a month from now let alone in 2016. We can assume as of now Jose, Alvarez and Cosart are going to be in the rotation next year. They need to sign a number 1-2 and we're hoping someone turns into a good number 4-5 of the club control guys. I don't see Dyson addressing the need for a number 1-2. I wouldn't move Ramos seeing how he hasn't started as a professional.

[nny]

I was thinking that about Dyson last night after Hand's pretty bad start (results were fine, but throwing a ball nearly 50% of the time is not). Mostly because it was like, who would even replace Hand?

But, I think it's like Jay said - the rotation looks a lot different a couple weeks from now, and you'd need to stretch him out. And he likely isn't an answer next year.

The old guesstimate of reliever to starter was add 1.2 to era/fip. His career fip is 3.34, so an estimate of a ~4.50 fip guy.

I do wish we could at least see what Flores, Rienzo, or Nicolino could do. But shit, everyone really does suck.

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We can assume as of now Jose, Alvarez and Cosart are going to be in the rotation next year. They need to sign a number 1-2 and we're hoping someone turns into a good number 4-5 of the club control guys.

Do you see Phelps being traded since his arbitration will go up? I think him and Cosart make a fine #4/#5.

The #2 is the biggest thing, as well as Alvarez's health (and hopefully we don't have to add Jose's health to that). And that is now a huge ? about Alvarez...

[emkayseven]

man Rodon was a huge fucking miss

[Nick]

Yeah that one is pretty much inexcusable.

[nny]

FA pitching depth seems to be decent, at least. Probably won't sign any of the top names like Price, Cueto, Greinke, or Zimmerman. But there's quite a few in the next tier, like Samardzija, Kazmir, Gallardo, Fister, Chen, Chacin.

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Early guess, with trading/non-tendering Cishek, Crow, and Koehler, we're at about 65-70m payroll next year (Including paying Salty).

So to sign a 20-25m pitcher, you're looking at a 85-95m payroll. We were at, what, 65m this year? So probably like 75m next year.

Sooo a FA pitcher is probably not happening. Morse and Salty being dead weight hurts a ton, 14m right there that's wasted.

[Jay]

Do you see Phelps being traded since his arbitration will go up? I think him and Cosart make a fine #4/#5.

The #2 is the biggest thing, as well as Alvarez's health (and hopefully we don't have to add Jose's health to that). And that is now a huge ? about Alvarez...

I'd have Phelps, Hand, and Koehler available at the deadline and in the offseason. I don't think you non-tender any of them but you see what they can get you and try and have them traded midseason in 2016. Unless of course we have no pitching again. And yeah pitching health is huge which is why they really need a 1-2 rather than a 2-3

[nny]

With our lack of LH RP options, I think Hand should stay. He'll only be making something like 1.1m, +/- 300k depending on how much he starts (so that's hopefully south of 1m). And if he can be a legit RP option, then he replaces Dunn after 2016.

And I think you need to keep one of Koehler and Phelps for depth, and I greatly prefer Phelps (though he will make a bit more in arb, since he was super 2 this year). That's putting a lot of faith in Flores, Nicolino, and/or Urena when none have been all that impressive this year.

I never want to relive a 2007 season again. I might dislike most of our rotation currently, but at least it's not Chris Seddons and Daniel Barones.

[Jay]

With our lack of LH RP options, I think Hand should stay. He'll only be making something like 1.1m, +/- 300k depending on how much he starts (so that's hopefully south of 1m). And if he can be a legit RP option, then he replaces Dunn after 2016.

And I think you need to keep one of Koehler and Phelps for depth, and I greatly prefer Phelps (though he will make a bit more in arb, since he was super 2 this year). That's putting a lot of faith in Flores, Nicolino, and/or Urena when none have been all that impressive this year.

I never want to relive a 2007 season again. I might dislike most of our rotation currently, but at least it's not Chris Seddons and Daniel Barones.

Well this is why I've been calling for Haren traded. The prospects need to get a chance to pitch to be evaluated. Nicolino has shown he can get results in the minors.

I don't like that logic for keeping Hand. He makes 1.1 in 2016 and 2+ in 2017? You can target a loogy or two in trades to have a lefty in the pen in 2017. I'm not a fan of having Dunn signed for 3.4 mil next year.

What would Koehler and Phelps arbitration numbers look like? I agree keeping one for depth would be nice but if Jose or Alvarez goes down for the year in May, you need to make a move anyway.

I'd trade the two that can get the best return by the start of next year, sign at least a number 3, and start one of the prospects as the 5. They really should sign two number 3s or a top end starter.

[nny]

Depending on how the rest of the season goes and they both stay in the rotation, somewhere around 2.5-2.8m for both of them.

[Erick]

Maybe it was a dumb suggestion, but I'd like to point out that Ramos might be a better pitcher now than he was in college. His usage of pitches is entirely different, starting with the usage of his changeup which he now uses 24% of the time. He's been very dominant with that pitch, too.

Every time Ramos comes in, the first thing usually mentioned in the broadcast is his "starter's arsenal." It's quite possible that he's not durable enough to do it, but I don't see the harm in giving him a chance next Spring Training to prove himself. Stuff wise, he can do it.

Considering the mediocrity in the rotation and the team's inability or unwillingness to spend on top FA pitchers, the organization should try experimenting internally to make the rotation better.

[marlinsfan24]

Maybe it was a dumb suggestion, but I'd like to point out that Ramos might be a better pitcher now than he was in college. His usage of pitches is entirely different, starting with the usage of his changeup which he now uses 24% of the time. He's been very dominant with that pitch, too.

Every time Ramos comes in, the first thing usually mentioned in the broadcast is his "starter's arsenal." It's quite possible that he's not durable enough to do it, but I don't see the harm in giving him a chance next Spring Training to prove himself. Stuff wise, he can do it.

Considering the mediocrity in the rotation and the team's inability or unwillingness to spend on top FA pitchers, the organization should try experimenting internally to make the rotation better.

I wouldn't do that, because the worst case scenario would be Ramos throwing his arm out. And he's been by far the best pitcher on the team this year. Cannot afford to lose him.

[Jay]

Maybe it was a dumb suggestion, but I'd like to point out that Ramos might be a better pitcher now than he was in college. His usage of pitches is entirely different, starting with the usage of his changeup which he now uses 24% of the time. He's been very dominant with that pitch, too.

Every time Ramos comes in, the first thing usually mentioned in the broadcast is his "starter's arsenal." It's quite possible that he's not durable enough to do it, but I don't see the harm in giving him a chance next Spring Training to prove himself. Stuff wise, he can do it.

Considering the mediocrity in the rotation and the team's inability or unwillingness to spend on top FA pitchers, the organization should try experimenting internally to make the rotation better.

You're weakening a very strong bullpen which Ramos has been the best arm out of in order to experiment in the rotation. If they really want to compete they need to sign a good fa starting pitcher or trade for one. Someone mentioned before but trading kolek for a 3 makes sense

[Erick]

You're weakening a very strong bullpen which Ramos has been the best arm out of in order to experiment in the rotation. If they really want to compete they need to sign a good fa starting pitcher or trade for one. Someone mentioned before but trading kolek for a 3 makes sense

That all depends the type of 3 you're talking about. If it's a league average 3, I don't think that's a good idea.

The organizational bullpen depth is way better than the rotation depth. It's also easier to fill holes in the pen in a cost efficient manner than it is to do so in the rotation.

If the experiment doesn't work in Spring Training, Ramos could also just go back to his regular duties and nothing is lost.