Cishek Blows Another Save As Marlins Lose to Giants 2-3

[BigGameFish]

I also think Cishek has the possibility of turning it around. Unfortunately, it seems that his velocity is lower than its ever been. That's a bad sign. He had a nice year last year, so he isn't far removed from success. But I think this is his third blown save already this season, and we cannot afford those cheap late-inning bullpen losses if we consider ourselves a serious playoff contender. Those little losses every few weeks end up causes 5-10 more losses than a team probably should have.

I don't think it's time to pull the plug on him yet, but the team needs to have a ready replacement in mind now just in case.

[lou]

The point is the FO should have never designated $6.6 million to a reliever to begin with. Now do they sell low? I highly doubt it and they'll probably sell just as low if not lower in the offseason.

Agree completely. Should have moved him, but at the same time he isn't as bad (even with a decreased velocity) with what he is showing right now. Two week demotion to low leverage situations, let Ramos/Dunn close things out. Just give him a breather in some mop up time.

I think the bullpen is still in good shape. Ramos, Dunn, Dyson, and Hand are doing what we expected, Cishek/Morris need to pick it up but they should, and they can churn that last spot while Fernandez/Alvarez are out. Maybe Koehler would pull a mini-Wade Davis in the bullpen. I think his days are numbered for the rotation.

[Jay]

Agree completely. Should have moved him, but at the same time he isn't as bad (even with a decreased velocity) with what he is showing right now. Two week demotion to low leverage situations, let Ramos/Dunn close things out. Just give him a breather in some mop up time.

I think the bullpen is still in good shape. Ramos, Dunn, Dyson, and Hand are doing what we expected, Cishek/Morris need to pick it up but they should, and they can churn that last spot while Fernandez/Alvarez are out. Maybe Koehler would pull a mini-Wade Davis in the bullpen. I think his days are numbered for the rotation.

I don't care if the put him in a lower relief role but I think he needs to be throwing in games every other day regardless of if there is a save situation to work his stuff out.

I think Koehler's days are numbered too. Alvarez could be back in the end of may and Jose could be back in mid-june. I'd like to see Koehler and would expect Masset to be removed. But Koehler and Dyson may have options (I don't know where to get that info easily). I can see Koehler being sent down to stay stretched out or Dyson just to have time to make a move. They really need to be trying to move Haren right now because of this and give Hand or Urena his starts until someone returns. The only pitcher who makes sense to DFA is Masset and thats cause it doesn't make sense to care if he gets claimed.

[HUGG]

Dunn, Hand, Hech and Morris are the only players out of options

- - - - - - - - - -

Also, in my experience the "too many pitchers" problem solves its self basically always. Wouldn't worry about it.

[Jay]

Dunn, Hand, Hech and Morris are the only players out of options

- - - - - - - - - -

Also, in my experience the "too many pitchers" problem solves its self basically always. Wouldn't worry about it.

I find it strange when guys like Haren or Latos can be optioned.

The too many pitchers problem will solve itself you're right. But do we all expect Haren to continue to perform like this, probably not because he's just not this good anymore so why don't we try and get something for him before he turns to shit?

[Nick]

Haren's not as good as he's been so far this season, but why are you acting like he's gonna all of a sudden fall apart? The guy has been tremendously consistent over the course of his career, he's only 34. If Dan Haren's your 4th or 5th starter, you have a pretty good rotation.

[Jay]

Haren's not as good as he's been so far this season, but why are you acting like he's gonna all of a sudden fall apart? The guy has been tremendously consistent over the course of his career, he's only 34. If Dan Haren's your 4th or 5th starter, you have a pretty good rotation.

There are 5 other guys that can fill Haren's shoes when you have Jose and Alvarez. Why should we not try and get a piece that can help more now or in the future for him? By only signing and holding onto players the only improvement that is possible is by players actually becoming better. The probability of Haren getting better at this point in his career is approaching zero.
As for why is he gonna all of a sudden fall apart. It might be because that .194 BABIP or the 89.8 % LOB or that his K/9 is a full point lower than last season or maybe that his fastball velocity is continuing to lose velocity as it has over the past couple years.

[nny]

I find it strange when guys like Haren or Latos can be optioned.

I don't remember the exact number, but after X amount of years of service time you can decline being optioned. So just because someone has options, doesn't mean you can option.

[HUGG]

5 years of service time.

The 4 I listed are the only players with less than 5 years who are out of them.

[nny]

There are 5 other guys that can fill Haren's shoes when you have Jose and Alvarez. Why should we not try and get a piece that can help more now or in the future for him? By only signing and holding onto players the only improvement that is possible is by players actually becoming better. The probability of Haren getting better at this point in his career is approaching zero.
As for why is he gonna all of a sudden fall apart. It might be because that .194 BABIP or the 89.8 % LOB or that his K/9 is a full point lower than last season or maybe that his fastball velocity is continuing to lose velocity as it has over the past couple years.

I'm not a Haren fan, but most of those players upsides are vastly limited and there is value in being able to pencil in your #5 for 200 IP of high 80 ERA+.

Does someone like Hand have a better chance of out performing that? Definitely. But he also has a lot higher chance of crashing and burning.

We already have one guy burning in the rotation (Koehler) and taking one guy for a test ride (Phelps). Stability is nice to have.

Also, I think you greatly overstate the whole trading thing. For one, trades rarely ever happen this early in the season. And when they do, it's fringe players like Cody Ross and Justin Riggsomething. Teams are still learning about themselves. For two, you're not getting anything of value for him unless you eat his salary.

[Jay]

Thanks for the options info nny and hugg.

I'm not a Haren fan, but most of those players upsides are vastly limited and there is value in being able to pencil in your #5 for 200 IP of high 80 ERA+.

Does someone like Hand have a better chance of out performing that? Definitely. But he also has a lot higher chance of crashing and burning.

We already have one guy burning in the rotation (Koehler) and taking one guy for a test ride (Phelps). Stability is nice to have.

Also, I think you greatly overstate the whole trading thing. For one, trades rarely ever happen this early in the season. And when they do, it's fringe players like Cody Ross and Justin Riggsomething. Teams are still learning about themselves. For two, you're not getting anything of value for him unless you eat his salary.

Haren hasn't pitched 200 innings since 2011.

Phelps has a season and a half worth of starts in the majors already. It's not like Nicolino is being thrown out there.

There is no reason that they can't eat Haren's salary; they aren't even paying it.

Trades rarely happen this early because teams are rarely willing to give up on a piece they intended to compete with. Trading Haren, we're not looking at those pieces; we're looking at depth guys similar to the ones we gave up to get him. Teams aren't going to back away because it's early, they'll actually be more inclined to make the trade because they see Haren as that stability guy at the back of their rotation and there isn't another option out there.

Two starters are expected back within the next month and a half. Koehler is the obvious first to go at this moment. But who would be the second? Phelps has looked good. Cosart can be expected for the stability of Haren but with some upside. Latos looks like he has turned the corner. I'd say Haren as he has the lowest upside.

[Nick]

We've got probably a month and a half until Jose comes back, there's a pretty darn good chance one of the current starters gets injured in that time period. Who knows how Alvarez will come back, will it be a recurring injury. I do not want to have to rely on Brad Hand or a AAA arm for any extended period in the rotation this season.

[HUGG]

So, basically, you want us to spend like $7.5m to get some "depth guys"

[AdamRavs]

He thinks we shoud just trade Haren to trade Haren. Jose still has to go on rehab assignments with out setbacks. Same with Alvarez. Koehler is the likely 1st man out. We can certainly go with a 6 man rotation when Jose comes back to limit his innings.

[Jay]

We've got probably a month and a half until Jose comes back, there's a pretty darn good chance one of the current starters gets injured in that time period. Who knows how Alvarez will come back, will it be a recurring injury. I do not want to have to rely on Brad Hand or a AAA arm for any extended period in the rotation this season.

Brad Hand, Tom Koehler and those AAA arms have more upside than Haren.

So, basically, you want us to spend like $7.5m to get some "depth guys"

We're spending 7.5 million on a 5th starter as the alternative. Also, we don't know what the market is for Haren currently, however we do know it's changed since the offseason. There is no guarantee that money has to be moved with Haren to get something we want. Sitting here waiting for Haren to implode and not at least seeing what's out there in return for Haren is dumb.

- - - - - - - - - -

Haren in the rotation instead of Hand or Koehler isn't going to change this team's postseason chances or change the probability of winning their start in a postseason series.