Cishek Blows 2nd Save As Marlins Lose 5th Straight to Mets This Season, 1-3

[dim]

Yeah I see a lot of the rash Marlins fan types calling for Ramos to take over for Cishek as closer. That's just ridiculous regardless of Ramos' stats currently. As Erick said nobody's perfect and Cishek tends to go on long scoreless streaks at some point in the season. While it sucks he's blown two games already I'm not worried yet about him.

[Jay]

Rather not see Ramos rack up saves to keep his salary numbers down in the future. I've heard the term fireman used in the past (not sure if it's still relevant) but that's how he should be used if he sustains his current reduced walk rate and improved ground ball rate.

[Jay]

Looking more into Cishek on brooksbaseball and noticed his horizontal release point is different from last year. This could be impacting his pitches.

[Madman81]

mf24 already pointed out that his velocity was the same in april last year. It just didn't affect his performance then.

kay. that doesn't make this true:

I don't think anyone is worried about him right now. The point is the club is spending $6.6 million on a guy who is going to cost the team as many games as his replacement making the league minimum would.



When the club has an OPS of ~.500 coming from the catcher versus right handers, it's a problem.

[Erick]

I don't think anyone is worried about him right now. The point is the club is spending $6.6 million on a guy who is going to cost the team as many games as his replacement making the league minimum would.



When the club has an OPS of ~.500 coming from the catcher versus right handers, it's a problem.

Saying that Cishek is going to cost this team as many games as his replacement would could be debated. While I'm concerned with the drop in velocity, it's something he's experienced before and overcome. Maybe he doesn't this year, who knows. However, small sample size aside, Steve Cishek has easily been this team's best reliever over the past couple of years.

Perhaps the drop from Cishek to Ramos wouldn't be bad, but that's also not how bullpens work. If you get rid of Cishek and Ramos replaces him, it's also a drop from Ramos to best available arm in AAA. Good bullpens have good depth, and that's what it should be about for a team trying to win.

Furthermore, plenty of people hated Ramos not so long ago. Ramos has his strengths, but lets not forget that he also has his flaws. Such as, for example, his terrible walk rate last year.
Even if Ramos continues to be as elite as he's been early on, he probably serves a more valuable role on the team in his current role as a guy who can be used for multiple innings or in different situations as you already posted in this thread.

As for the catcher point, I'm not saying it won't be a problem; I'm just saying that Jarrod Saltalamacchia wasn't the answer.

- - - - - - - - - -

I'm gonna do the bobbob thing here...show me on the doll where Jarrod touched you

How can you say Mathis (32 years old, career .561 OPS and 52 OPS+ (52!!!!!)) and a career .600 OPS MILB bat won't be worse than Saltalamacchia?

Because Jarrod Saltalamacchia wasn't much better and was consistently getting worse.

[Jay]

Salty may not have been the answer but Realmuto is the best option we have after him and him staying in the majors all year could negatively impact his long term development.

I'm not in support of giving Ramos the closer position. Closers are significantly overrated. I'd support trading Cishek and promoting Wittgren to be the new closer then we can get 3 years of him and then trade him.

[Fighting Fish]

Bounce back

Although Cishek lost the save, Cosart pitched very well and the Fish were on track to win versus one of the hottest (if not the hottest) team in MLB. Cishek and the team must bounce back. Winning their third series in a row, against the smoking Mets mind you, would be huge.

Go Fish!

[Erick]

Salty may not have been the answer but Realmuto is the best option we have after him and him staying in the majors all year could negatively impact his long term development.

I'm not in support of giving Ramos the closer position. Closers are significantly overrated. I'd support trading Cishek and promoting Wittgren to be the new closer then we can get 3 years of him and then trade him.

Such a move would make no sense to me. I think you're underrating the closer's role.

[Jay]

Such a move would make no sense to me. I think you're underrating the closer's role.

I think you're overrating the importance of a guy who gets the last three outs of a game.

[Namaste]

Cisheck blew the save because he could still smell the aroma of Saltalamachia in the clubhouse prior to the game.

-E

[Erick]

I think you're overrating the importance of a guy who gets the last three outs of a game.

Saves aside, the guy who gets the last three outs isn't as irrelevant as you're making it seem. The closer typically gets a lot of high-leverage innings over the course of the year. Handing such a role to Wittgren who's proven nothing makes no sense.

If you feel like Cishek shouldn't be in the role and that Ramos is too valuable for the role, Bryan Morris would probably be a more logical alternative.

Ideally, our bullpen would be handled more like the Rays handle theirs, but that's not the type of thing the Marlins do, so whatever.

[Jay]

Saves aside, the guy who gets the last three outs isn't as irrelevant as you're making it seem. The closer typically gets a lot of high-leverage innings over the course of the year. Handing such a role to Wittgren who's proven nothing makes no sense.

If you feel like Cishek shouldn't be in the role and that Ramos is too valuable for the role, Bryan Morris would probably be a more logical alternative.

Ideally, our bullpen would be handled more like the Rays handle theirs, but that's not the type of thing the Marlins do, so whatever.

The thing is they aren't always high-leverage innings yet you are forced to pay for them for someone who has that experience. Facing the 7-8-9 batters with a three run lead isn't exactly hard. Last night was the opposite where Cishek faced 2-3-4 to start the inning with only a 1 run lead. The best reliever should be used in those case whereas other certainly don't make a difference. My point is they shouldn't be wasting money on a guy that is so irrelevant when it comes to actually winning games and they should maximize the talent on the team based on how they know the league operates.

[nny]

But the closer role is a thing and the closer role will get very high leverage situations. So throwing an unknown in there is a bad idea.

It's also been interesting the change in playoff teams building very strong and deep bullpens solely for the playoffs.

[Erick]

The thing is they aren't always high-leverage innings yet you are forced to pay for them for someone who has that experience. Facing the 7-8-9 batters with a three run lead isn't exactly hard. Last night was the opposite where Cishek faced 2-3-4 to start the inning with only a 1 run lead. The best reliever should be used in those case whereas other certainly don't make a difference. My point is they shouldn't be wasting money on a guy that is so irrelevant when it comes to actually winning games and they should maximize the talent on the team based on how they know the league operates.

To be fair, I don't think that the league operates this way. Most teams still manage their bullpens in a conventional manner and most closers are getting paid as much, if not more, than Cishek. Of course, perhaps the bigger issue is that those dollars mean more to this team than the average team, but even small-market teams are spending on bullpens.

[Jay]

Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.