Henderson Alvarez, SP

[Mainge]

Value is a nice, vague term. In Buerhle's time there, he's given Toronto an ERA+ of exactly 100 for an insane salary. Reyes has an OPS+ of 105 while missing a shit ton of games, is declining every year, and has an even more insane salary. JJ imploded.

Alvarez alone has been more "valuable" than those two combined, especially considering payroll commitment. Hechavarria seems to be an ascending player. Marisnick was flipped for Cosart, who definitely has provided "value." DeScalfini turned into Latos, definitely value there. Nicolino still has a chance to provide value.

I'm also not sure why Alvarez's value doesn't count because we were non-competitive. The Blue Jays were just as non-competitive.

I hated the trade at the time. Still not a big fan of it. But it's not a 1-sided blowout you're making it out to be. I'll say it again, there are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticize the Marlins for. Calling the Marlins stupid for acquiring Henderson Alvarez is not one of them.

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[nny]

I just don't understand why the Blue Jays made the trade.

That gave up a ton of prospects to have Reyes at 19.2m per year (Compared to the 17.7m we signed him for) and Buehrle at 16.3m (Compared to the 13.75m we signed him at).

Why do you not just sign those players the year before? They're paying more than they would have, PLUS had to give up prospects to do it (Three top 100 prospects and a 22yo pitcher already in the majors). It was just plain bad foresight and planning.

You compare it to the BOS/LAD salary dump, and LAD gave up just one prospect of value AND had money to help offset the contracts too.

[Jay]

Value is a nice, vague term. In Buerhle's time there, he's given Toronto an ERA+ of exactly 100 for an insane salary. Reyes has an OPS+ of 105 while missing a shit ton of games, is declining every year, and has an even more insane salary. JJ imploded.

Alvarez alone has been more "valuable" than those two combined, especially considering payroll commitment. Hechavarria seems to be an ascending player. Marisnick was flipped for Cosart, who definitely has provided "value." DeScalfini turned into Latos, definitely value there. Nicolino still has a chance to provide value.

I'm also not sure why Alvarez's value doesn't count because we were non-competitive. The Blue Jays were just as non-competitive.

I hated the trade at the time. Still not a big fan of it. But it's not a 1-sided blowout you're making it out to be. I'll say it again, there are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticize the Marlins for. Calling the Marlins stupid for acquiring Henderson Alvarez is not one of them.

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I was going to look at it more in depth but so many players in the deal were traded as small pieces of the deal. The Cosart deal involved other players; Marisnick didn't get Cosart alone but Cosart didn't get Marisnick and Moran alone; you just can't isolate these trades for a single player. DeScalfini didn't get Latos alone; he was the primary piece.

It's not only about acquiring Alvarez but about not having TJ surgery when he was acquired or when Jose went down. The team was not competitive and now when the team is trying to be competitive you can't count on the guy. The probability of that UCL tear landing him on the DL goes up with each pitch he throws and he made over 60 starts while the team wasn't competitive. The only reason you don't do the surgery immediately is if you want to roll the dice that he doesn't break until he reaches free agency and you have no intention of signing him long-term. Rolling the dice on 5 years of it not being a problem; it's not a safe bet. The FO lacks the planning necessary to build a competitive team long-term.

[Mainge]

The point wasn't that they acquired those players alone. The point was that they provided value.

[Jay]

The point wasn't that they acquired those players alone. The point was that they provided value.

But how do you not justify having TJ surgery immediately?

[Mainge]

I don't know. I'm not a doctor. Considering how well he pitched, it'd be hilarious to me that we wanted him to have surgery. Maybe that is the right move, but we cannot possibly know that.

Why didn't Roy Halladay have surgery immediately in 2006 instead of going on to be the best pitcher in baseball for a decade?

[Jay]

I don't know. I'm not a doctor. Considering how well he pitched, it'd be hilarious to me that we wanted him to have surgery. Maybe that is the right move, but we cannot possibly know that.

Why didn't Roy Halladay have surgery immediately in 2006 instead of going on to be the best pitcher in baseball for a decade?

How bad was Roy Halladay's injury? I assume it's a UCL tear. I'm saying it makes sense to have the surgery based on a lot of factors. TJ surgery has a high success rate the first time, the severity of the tear, the timeline for the team to be competitive, current salary, and contract length.

[Mainge]

No idea. But like I said a few posts ago, we're going in circles. We've made our points.

[Bobbob1313]

I think something like 20% of pitchers who have TJS need it again at some point.

I really think we overstate how "routine" the procedure is.

[Jay]

I think something like 20% of pitchers who have TJS need it again at some point.

I really think we overstate how "routine" the procedure is.

Is there any throwing motion that produces significantly less stress at that point?