2023-2024 Offseason Thread

[sports24/7]

I have no problem with this as the Rays farm/regular season success/front office pipeline speaks for itself, but it telegraphs he’s not going to spend money to me and that’s depressing. Maybe I’m wrong and this is a FO only move and Bruce is open to moving to “bottom 18-21” payroll.

That's my worry as well, but my hope is that Bendix wouldn't have taken the job if Bruce told him he wasn't going to spend. There's a difference between an understanding that you're never going to compete financially with the big 3 in the division, and expecting a rabbit to be pulled out of a hat consistently without ever spending real money. Bendix seems pretty highly regarded, so I wouldn't think he'd want to tie himself to the latter.

[rmc523]

I have no problem with this as the Rays farm/regular season success/front office pipeline speaks for itself, but it telegraphs he’s not going to spend money to me and that’s depressing. Maybe I’m wrong and this is a FO only move and Bruce is open to moving to “bottom 18-21” payroll.

We have no guarantee Bruce will spend money, and it's more likely that he won't than he will, but....

I love the narrative from media that just because we hired a Rays guy automatically means we want to be bottom of the barrel cheap. Meanwhile Friedman went to the Dodgers years ago and the narrative is "they'll be smart with money".

I've been saying for years we should hire a Rays guy - about time we did.

[lou]

We have no guarantee Bruce will spend money, and it's more likely that he won't than he will, but....

I love the narrative from media that just because we hired a Rays guy automatically means we want to be bottom of the barrel cheap. Meanwhile Friedman went to the Dodgers years ago and the narrative is "they'll be smart with money".

I've been saying for years we should hire a Rays guy - about time we did.

Sure. It’s a fine move on paper, but no one can polish the payroll contending turd. The Rays haven’t figured that out yet either. I’d rather win 1 World Series every 20-25 years and perennially suck than be a playoff contender who always gets bounced, etc. So I’m not sure anyone in charge matters when at the end of the day they are going into their job with their shoelaces tied together.

We can hope Bruce sees what Seager and Semien did to that team. They had no excuse winning this year, but some may say good things happen when you try. Bellinger and Montgomery on overpays (which opens up a move for Adames big time) could be $200m less than what Texas spent on those two for perspective. We shall see what Bruce approves. Maybe this guy can magically draft four all stars at once - Yelich, Stanton, Fernandez, Realmuto - and not fuck it up.

[rmc523]

Sure. It’s a fine move on paper, but no one can polish the payroll contending turd. The Rays haven’t figured that out yet either. I’d rather win 1 World Series every 20-25 years and perennially suck than be a playoff contender who always gets bounced, etc. So I’m not sure anyone in charge matters when at the end of the day they are going into their job with their shoelaces tied together.

We can hope Bruce sees what Seager and Semien did to that team. They had no excuse winning this year, but some may say good things happen when you try. Bellinger and Montgomery on overpays (which opens up a move for Adames big time) could be $200m less than what Texas spent on those two for perspective. We shall see what Bruce approves. Maybe this guy can magically draft four all stars at once - Yelich, Stanton, Fernandez, Realmuto - and not fuck it up.

I get the Rays haven't won the WS. But you can't win if you don't get there. I'd rather have a perennial playoff team that has a chance to win just about every year - eventually you'll get over that hump and win. Watching losing baseball gets old, and frankly, I was starting to lose interest altogether. We've done enough of that.

[fish16]

I get the Rays haven't won the WS. But you can't win if you don't get there. I'd rather have a perennial playoff team that has a chance to win just about every year - eventually you'll get over that hump and win. Watching losing baseball gets old, and frankly, I was starting to lose interest altogether. We've done enough of that.

exactly, it's pretty absurd to say you would rather be us with our playoff history than the rays. The playoffs are small sample size and luck. the more you get there, the better your chances. It is also awful for baseball in this market to never be good. We need to start to win consistently to build any kind of fanbase and in turn build revenues and payrolls.

Just look at us in 2003. The luck we had was beyond absurd. Jose Cruz Jr drops a routine fly ball in right field. Alex gonzalez on the cubs flubs a routine double play ball, Bartman gets in the way, our alex gonzalez hits a ball that gets out in only that part of the ballpark. To say it's better to win once in 25 years than to get to the playoffs and have more chances is just dumb

[lou]

Cubs paying Craig Counsel $8m to manage

Only Bell, Garcia, Arraez, and Sandy (and Soler) will make more for the Marlins.

[lou]

exactly, it's pretty absurd to say you would rather be us with our playoff history than the rays. The playoffs are small sample size and luck. the more you get there, the better your chances. It is also awful for baseball in this market to never be good. We need to start to win consistently to build any kind of fanbase and in turn build revenues and payrolls.

Just look at us in 2003. The luck we had was beyond absurd. Jose Cruz Jr drops a routine fly ball in right field. Alex gonzalez on the cubs flubs a routine double play ball, Bartman gets in the way, our alex gonzalez hits a ball that gets out in only that part of the ballpark. To say it's better to win once in 25 years than to get to the playoffs and have more chances is just dumb

Ask any Rays fans if they want two World Series championships or 15 extra playoff appearances. How about Oakland fans during the Beane years?

It’s a valid discussion question to point out can any team nickel and dime to true contention when the Rangers just blew everyone away with payroll. They did this without DeGrom, added Max (those two over $60m in 2024), and have $43m invested in Eovaldi, Gray, and Heaney alone. Seager and Semien are making over $60m next year on top of all of that. They are saying they are going to QO Garver next. How can anyone compete with this if you’re not spending close to league average to make up the difference as even the gold standard Beane and Rays moneyball/development juggernauts can’t do it. All these Rays and now Diamondbacks teams lose. They always lose. I’ve said it before, I’m not sure it isn’t worse being a Rays fan as their ownership could have probably won a title if they added someone where we are just begging for competence. We’d be furious.

[sports24/7]

Ask any Rays fans if they want two World Series championships or 15 extra playoff appearances. How about Oakland fans during the Beane years?

It’s a valid discussion question to point out can any team nickel and dime to true contention when the Rangers just blew everyone away with payroll. They did this without DeGrom, added Max (those two over $60m in 2024), and have $43m invested in Eovaldi, Gray, and Heaney alone. Seager and Semien are making over $60m next year on top of all of that. They are saying they are going to QO Garver next. How can anyone compete with this if you’re not spending close to league average to make up the difference as even the gold standard Beane and Rays moneyball/development juggernauts can’t do it. All these Rays and now Diamondbacks teams lose. They always lose. I’ve said it before, I’m not sure it isn’t worse being a Rays fan as their ownership could have probably won a title if they added someone where we are just begging for competence. We’d be furious.

We can debate which route is better, but the fact is, the status quo of what we’ve gotten from this ownership group isn’t going to deliver that one WS in the middle of decades of terrible. Those championships were won because ownership decided to spend to get there, and then because they hit on draft picks and some of the trades on the good players they bought. The Sherman Marlins up until this point don’t have either of those. Bringing in a Rays guy can potentially help you get to something close to the second iteration.

[fish16]

Ask any Rays fans if they want two World Series championships or 15 extra playoff appearances. How about Oakland fans during the Beane years?

It’s a valid discussion question to point out can any team nickel and dime to true contention when the Rangers just blew everyone away with payroll. They did this without DeGrom, added Max (those two over $60m in 2024), and have $43m invested in Eovaldi, Gray, and Heaney alone. Seager and Semien are making over $60m next year on top of all of that. They are saying they are going to QO Garver next. How can anyone compete with this if you’re not spending close to league average to make up the difference as even the gold standard Beane and Rays moneyball/development juggernauts can’t do it. All these Rays and now Diamondbacks teams lose. They always lose. I’ve said it before, I’m not sure it isn’t worse being a Rays fan as their ownership could have probably won a title if they added someone where we are just begging for competence. We’d be furious.

i would take consistently good playoff teams and relevance and a shot at a title most years than irrelevance and incompetence and a title every 20 years. You have to get there to win. The playoffs are a crapshoot. It's only slightly less random than march madness.

The rays arent a failure because they havent won a title. That just illustrates how random baseball is and how small of a sample the playoffs is. Getting there is the most important thing. What happens after that is a crapshoot. But you have to get there to win. They have had 12 seasons above 500 since 2008, we have had 4, 2 of which were in 2008 and 2009, the other was the Covid year, and then this year. I would absolutely take consistent winning over the fluke world series 20 years ago.

[lou]

i would take consistently good playoff teams and relevance and a shot at a title most years than irrelevance and incompetence and a title every 20 years. You have to get there to win. The playoffs are a crapshoot. It's only slightly less random than march madness.

The rays arent a failure because they havent won a title. That just illustrates how random baseball is and how small of a sample the playoffs is. Getting there is the most important thing. What happens after that is a crapshoot. But you have to get there to win. They have had 12 seasons above 500 since 2008, we have had 4, 2 of which were in 2008 and 2009, the other was the Covid year, and then this year. I would absolutely take consistent winning over the fluke world series 20 years ago.

That’s fine - but the Rays are never winning a title. That’s the rub. They are never going to get over the hump with how they are operating and how other teams can buy so much depth around them where the Rangers can absorb DeGrom getting hurt and McClanahan/Wander quickly end their season. The Rays are great at what they do, but that’s not a championship winning team strategy IMO. It’s a regular season one.

I am basically saying here Bruce sucks and I don’t think anyone disagrees with me. Becoming the NL Rays is certainly an improvement if that happens, but that’s going to be a lot of 2023 repeats IMO absent Bruce buying a 3-4 year window on top of homegrown team. So that’s the question - is that guy going to ever do it or is he going to use Sandy’s injury as an excuse with a new FO to reassess a year and then find a new excuse next year.

[lou]

We can debate which route is better, but the fact is, the status quo of what we’ve gotten from this ownership group isn’t going to deliver that one WS in the middle of decades of terrible. Those championships were won because ownership decided to spend to get there, and then because they hit on draft picks and some of the trades on the good players they bought. The Sherman Marlins up until this point don’t have either of those. Bringing in a Rays guy can potentially help you get to something close to the second iteration.

Right ownership decided to spend! Rays ownership has decided to NOT spend after they hit on their picks/trades. So are they worse for navigating this landscape and then failing to get final pieces. Bruce is sure still a TBD (I guess) so is he going to do it because quite frankly, I’ll show you a playoff team on paper if you tell me a budget of $140m and that’s not league average. This is coming off a bottom 3-5 payroll for 5 years. So this move is fine, looks good on paper, but does it matter if Bruce is never going to do anything is ultimately my position here. Because all these teams that don’t spend are going to get killed come the playoffs every year. I bet Baltimore doubles their payroll and signs two huge aces is what I’m saying.

[rmc523]

Right ownership decided to spend! Rays ownership has decided to NOT spend after they hit on their picks/trades. So are they worse for navigating this landscape and then failing to get final pieces. Bruce is sure still a TBD (I guess) so is he going to do it because quite frankly, I’ll show you a playoff team on paper if you tell me a budget of $140m and that’s not league average. This is coming off a bottom 3-5 payroll for 5 years. So this move is fine, looks good on paper, but does it matter if Bruce is never going to do anything is ultimately my position here. Because all these teams that don’t spend are going to get killed come the playoffs every year. I bet Baltimore doubles their payroll and signs two huge aces is what I’m saying.

I really don't understand what your argument overall here is.

You're saying we'd be in a worse position because we're bringing people in from an organization that perennially competes and is in the playoffs with potential for that here as well?

All because of a strawman argument of Bruce may not spend on targeted bigger expenditures when the time is right with a stronger overall organization?

If he doesn't spend, sure, I'll be there with you to complain - but again, I'd rather have a winning, solid all-around organization that needs some last pieces higher expenditure players to fully get over the hump, vs. 20 years of losing baseball.

[lou]

I really don't understand what your argument overall here is.

You're saying we'd be in a worse position because we're bringing people in from an organization that perennially competes and is in the playoffs with potential for that here as well?

All because of a strawman argument of Bruce may not spend on targeted bigger expenditures when the time is right with a stronger overall organization?

If he doesn't spend, sure, I'll be there with you to complain - but again, I'd rather have a winning, solid all-around organization that needs some last pieces higher expenditure players to fully get over the hump, vs. 20 years of losing baseball.

I value championships more it sounds. Dolphins can lose for the next 10 years if they win the Super Bowl this year. After whiffing on it for 50 years. Flags fly forever.

[lou]

Basically, we want the Rays front office development with Twins/Mariners ownership payroll ($137-153m, which is 17th/18th). And that can (radically) scale down in non contending years to deflect against paying those in a 3-5 year contending window, etc. That’s a reasonable request also and not expecting them to all of a sudden be a top 10 ($192m and more) payroll team.

A Rays front office strategy alone isn’t going to cut it for me. Nothing is going to change without Bruce funding at least contending windows even if they burn it all down after. So this is a “cool” move with all eyes on Bruce to do his part after the team
made the playoffs. Please Bruce don’t lose the momentum. It sucks Sandy got hurt but the team will be good if you want it to be.

[sports24/7]

Right ownership decided to spend! Rays ownership has decided to NOT spend after they hit on their picks/trades. So are they worse for navigating this landscape and then failing to get final pieces. Bruce is sure still a TBD (I guess) so is he going to do it because quite frankly, I’ll show you a playoff team on paper if you tell me a budget of $140m and that’s not league average. This is coming off a bottom 3-5 payroll for 5 years. So this move is fine, looks good on paper, but does it matter if Bruce is never going to do anything is ultimately my position here. Because all these teams that don’t spend are going to get killed come the playoffs every year. I bet Baltimore doubles their payroll and signs two huge aces is what I’m saying.

Right. I do think he’s going to spend a bit because I just can’t believe Bendix signs on if Bruce doesn’t promise to spend some. And if they don’t spend, I don’t think they have much of a chance. That being said, if not spending is a given, I’d rather someone who can help them contend on little money rather than someone who won’t help them contend spending little money.