Larry Beinfest's Future with the Marlins

[Miamarlin21]

Do note that technically Mike Hill is the General Manager. That seems to always get lost in the shuffle. Anyway, I asked Hill about their decision making a few years ago (I believe it was after he was "promoted" to GM and he said it was a joint effort and not just one person making a move. If Beinfest goes I would guess they would get rid of Hill as well. It's not like it's Beinfest making all the calls and playing point. Yes, he gets all the camera time and seems like Hill is just the jersey holder, but only firing Beinfest and keeping Hill as his "replacement" doesn't do anything other than maybe send a message to Hill that they mean business.

[Mainge]

Do note that technically Mike Hill is the General Manager. That seems to always get lost in the shuffle. Anyway, I asked Hill about their decision making a few years ago (I believe it was after he was "promoted" to GM and he said it was a joint effort and not just one person making a move. If Beinfest goes I would guess they would get rid of Hill as well. It's not like it's Beinfest making all the calls and playing point. Yes, he gets all the camera time and seems like Hill is just the jersey holder, but only firing Beinfest and keeping Hill as his "replacement" doesn't do anything other than maybe send a message to Hill that they mean business.

I think everyone here knows he's technically the GM but it's such an empty title with Beinfest above him that it's not worth mentioning.

Also, every FO in every sport is a joint effort from all personnel people. Ultimately, however, Beinfest has the final say and he's held responsible for what happens good or bad. That being said, I agree that if Beinfest goes, the house needs to be cleaned.

[Swifty]

You clean house because our organizational philosophy sucks (speed >>>> all). I'm sure Mike Hill is a nice guy, he went to Harvard so he's almost certainly a smart guy, but you have to purge every decision maker that may have been swayed by the way we've tried to do it over the last 8 years, and that's fine. When you get as big a budget and as clean a canvas as Beinfest and Co. were given since we started aggressively building for 2012, you can't be as wrong as they've been without serious repercussions.

[Omar]

I take exception to the stereotype that we have a speed > * mentality. The biggest problem I have with the front office is that we don't have a mentality. We don't have an organizational philosophy, or at least one that we actually continuously subscribe to.

I'll say two things at the beginning, which I'm sure don't come as a surprise to anyone but might as well be clarified. One, I don't have a problem with a speed/OBP/defense mentality for position players if it's actually executed properly. I personally think it can both win championships and be thrilling to watch. Number two, I've been quietly on the fire Beinfest/Hill/minor league staff bandwagon for a while. I don't think they do a good job overall and I feel that they've made several major mistakes that have set the organization back many years.

The #1 thing we need to do, in my opinion, is decide on an organizational philosophy and follow it down to the core. We should draft only players that fit the criteria, whatever it may be. For example, if we decide that we are legitimately going to follow the small ball strategy, then we need to draft and sign players that actually fit that criteria. That means that players coming out of school will have to have the highest marks in glove/arm/range, plate discipline, stolen bases, bunting, and baseball IQ. Draft players that run a 4.5 or better and see 6 pitches an AB. Get the guys that have the balls to turn a softly hit single into a double because the LF wasn't paying attention. Look for that in free agents/trade acquisitions as well, while teaching guys to play with that mentality from Day 1 in the minor league system. Call it the Miami Marlins Way.

If you do that, then you have something that sets you apart, allows you to impose your strategy of play (whatever it may be) when things are going right, and opens up the other elements of the game for exploitation. More importantly, it gives you clear direction in who you try to bring in and what way you want to try and play the game. If it doesn't work after a few years, you can scratch it off the list and build in another manner.

What doesn't work at all, however, is building without a plan. Always going for the best available player and/or need broadens the horizon, sure, but it also makes it that much more difficult to build a winning franchise. There are several roads that lead to salvation, but all of them have one thing in common - there aren't a ton of detours along the way. We can't draft to a need when that player won't be in the majors for four years. We can't trade for players just because they're good without really thinking about where they fit in the lineup [1]. We also have to know when to cut our losses on players.

  Spoiler:

[1] On the lineup point, because I know that'll be dissected, I mean less about what number they hit at and more about how they fit with each other. If we need a run producer, we should get one that does that rather than putting an OBP hitter in the slot and hoping for the best. We can't have a lineup full of #2 hitters and be surprised when no one can actually drive anyone in.

As a way of wrapping this up, we played a little game in the party section on Wednesday night in regards to our front office. The premise was this: Name the last good player the Marlins drafted at each position. Here's what we came up with:

P: Josh Johnson
C: Charles Johnson
1B: Adrian Gonzalez
2B:
3B: Josh Willingham
SS:
LF:
CF:
RF: Giancarlo Stanton

We've had, what, 1,000 picks in that time?

[emkayseven]

Coghlan at 2b. He may suck now but he won a rookie of the year award.

If you're really going for "most recent" and "at position drafted" then Gaby at catcher and lomo at first

[Bobbob1313]

I'm guessing he was not counting Lomo, Gaby and Coghlan as "good" players.

[Namaste]

I'm guessing that you guessed right.

[Swifty]

International FA's have to count for that. A developed player is a developed player. Plus, you can't do "best" without Miggy and Luis.

On a side note, that's also a major riticism of mine, how inactive we are in the international market under Beinfest (though that's on ownership too).

[emkayseven]

don't forget Edgar

[Omar]

International FA's have to count for that. A developed player is a developed player. Plus, you can't do "best" without Miggy and Luis.

On a side note, that's also a major riticism of mine, how inactive we are in the international market under Beinfest (though that's on ownership too).

Pretty sure all three of those (I'm counting Edgar as he was mentioned) are Dombrowski/his people signings, no?

[Mainge]

Pretty sure all three of those (I'm counting Edgar as he was mentioned) are Dombrowski/his people signings, no?

In your post it just said the last good player the Marlins drafted position at each position, not just Beinfest & co.

If that's the case, I don't think Adrian Gonzalez, CJ or Willingham belong on that list either.

[Miamarlin21]

Omar, the only international guys that the Beinfest era has produced are Sandy Rosario, Vandy and Juan Mariñez. (With Miggy, Bazardo, Carlos Martinez pre-dating them.) That's not really impressive at all.
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In your post it just said the last good player the Marlins drafted position at each position, not just Beinfest & co.

If that's the case, I don't think Adrian Gonzalez, CJ or Willingham belong on that list either.

They don't. Only 2002 and later would really qualify as the Loria/Beinfest era.
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Scratch that, Ozzie was drafted, so take him off that list.
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To take that one step further, in the 9 drafts that the Beinfest Era has had, only 39 drafted players have made it to the big leagues, with three (Aaron Thompson, Travis Chick and Jon Raynor) making it with other clubs. So 50 average rounds (just to have a base number, since we had 5 first rounders in 2005, ect) X 9=450. SO 39 of a potential 450 guys made it. I think that comes out to 9.28% if I did the math right.

[Omar]

In your post it just said the last good player the Marlins drafted position at each position, not just Beinfest & co.

If that's the case, I don't think Adrian Gonzalez, CJ or Willingham belong on that list either.

Oof.

The numbers that fm posted are pretty crazy. I wonder, how many of our picks were used as chips for major league players?

[Bobbob1313]

The numbers MM posted are pretty nothing without context, though, which is something that always comes up when discussing the relative successes or failures of draft, but which is rarely actually considered.

[Miamarlin21]

Oof.

The numbers that fm posted are pretty crazy. I wonder, how many of our picks were used as chips for major league players?

Six big leaguers:
Andino to Baltimore for Hayden Penn
Jason Vargas to the New York Mets for Matt Lindstrom and Henry Owens
Aaron Thompson to Washington for Nick Johnson
Chris Volstad to Chicago for Carlos Zambrano
Jeremy Hermida to Boston for Hunter Jones
Scott Olsen for Emilio Bonifacio

Three minor leaguers:
Hector Correra to San Francisco for Ronny Paulino
Jay Voss to Detroit for Nate Robertson
Jobduan Morales to Houston for Justin Ruggiano.