The Marlins and Young Players' Contracts

[Bobbob1313]

How many times have they settled before arbitration?

It's not like players are routinely saying "Fuck those guys, I'm taking them to baseball court!"

That's more what I'm referring to. They've lost when they've gone to arbi, but that's less a reflection of how players feel and more a reflection of poor negotiating skills.
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To bring that up here, we'd have to see how often the Marlins go to arbitration period, relative to other teams, not how often they lose, I think.

[Chewford]

Losing is 7 out of 8 is pretty bad.

Trying to argue that it is not routine because you just want to argue semantics to give you something to argue about is also possibly bad.

[Bobbob1313]

That's not at all what I'm doing.
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Also, it's not 7 of the last eight. It's 7 of 10 all time and 1 of 5 since 2007. So they have lost 5 arbitration cases in the last six offseasons and have been taken to arbitration 6 times.

Now, like I said, I don't think in this argument, the amount of times they have lost matters. The amount of times they have gone overall is what matters.

Does anyone know how the amount of times they have gone to arbitration overall compares to the league as a whole?

[emkayseven]

Bobbob, I asked Maury Brown if he has that info (he is king of arbitration info). His answer:

I do not have the hearing schedule order. It factors, but not as much as one would think. There is massive oversight by the Labor Relations Dept. (LRD) at the Commissioner's Office to vet the offering figures. I don't know if the Marlins ignored the LRD or not this year, but if not for them losing their cases, the clubs would have had their first ever clean sweep in arbitration. Here's two links:



http://bizofbaseball.com/index.php?o...083&Itemid=184

[Bobbob1313]

Ok, thanks.

Marlins have had nine under this ownership.

3 in '03
2 in '07
1 in '09
1 in '10
2 in '12

There have been 64 overall in that same time frame, so the Marlins are certainly going to arbitration more than one would expect just based on randomness.

However, the Nationals/Expos went to arbitration 11 times in that same span, the Rays went 6, and the Twins went 4.

So is it "Players are pissed at the Marlins and want to screw them in arbitration" or is it "Small markets go to Arbitration more." Or is it a bit of both?

I'd also like to see how many players filed for arbitration relative to how many actually went, by team.

The numbers don't seem conclusive to me.

[Swifty]

No, it's agents being mad and poor negotiating skills (after filing, Marlins don't "exchange offers"). My buddy was at SFX during Cabrera's arby. The Marlins offered a 3 year take it or leave it offer and Cuza responded "we're leaving it and we're going to kick your ass." There's tremendous dislike for our FO in the agent world.

[Party]

David Samson is a very personable human being I don't believe this.

[lou]

How many times have they settled before arbitration?

I do acknowledge this point and they do a pretty good job here for the most part, but settling with the Mujicas, Murphys, Greggs, Hermidas, and Johnsons (after devastating arm surgery) of the worlds is really padding those stats to getting your butt kicked by Cabrera, Uggla, and now Anibal. Those are the ones that matter at the end of the day. And Bonifacio winning even a small amount is sure to raise some eyes. Why take the Marlins offer when there is a good chance you'll win? That Bonifacio loss is inexcusable.

Also, I'd like to specifically point out Dontrelle who is the one "star" guy they were able to settle with through arbitration. Not that I think the two are directly linked, but the Marlins paid him tens of thousands above tender his initial years and did not pay him MLB minimum. The reason for this was the ROY (same thing they did with Coghlan, so they do have a history of upping scale for a seasonal award), but I can't say it's not somewhat coincidental the one guy they have up-scaled they did not have an arbitration war with.
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Players are pissed at the Marlins and want to screw them in arbitration" or is it "Small markets go to Arbitration more." Or is it a bit of both?

I'd also like to see how many players filed for arbitration relative to how many actually went, by team.

The numbers don't seem conclusive to me.

I think it's more of the Marlins treat everyone as employees and don't develop any relationships, which is just a way of doing business. I personally disagree with it. They can still be strict with budgets, take them to arbitration, and trade guys on a whim while giving decent CC tenders. It's not waving the white flags that the bank is open.

I'm just saying I'm throwing Stanton a $20k carrot this season because buying any sort of good will is only going to help. Why put them into total war mode immediately when Stanton sees other young guys like McCutchen getting nice tender upgrades ($416-452) after year 1+. That's a real nice raise Pirates when you did not have to give him anything more. Well played Pirates. Your chances of keeping him suck but you're trying and I commend you from an organizational standpoint. Yea I get the Marlins argument the minimum is raised this year, but that's a weak excuse. Throw the dude an extra $20k and say thanks for that 4.5 WAR.

And also, I don't think an extra, and let's be really over budgeting, $100k to the club controlled guys CUMULATIVELY on the roster really effects the Marlins bottom line, and it makes everyone on the team feel ownership cares a little bit. I'm convinced they make that back on arbitration deals down the road by not having agents fighting every last figure. And like Swift said, how about negotiating a figure post exchange of numbers? Idiots.

It's just treating people like humans. Business is easier when you do that. And in this instant, what do the Marlins have to lose compared to their overall payroll? It's literally 1/1,000th of the 2012 payroll.

[AdamRavs]

At this point you need to sign Stanton to a long term deal. I just have a feeling this gonna turn into the Miggy mess.

[TheMendozaLine]

Morale be low

[AdamRavs]

I would say trust hasn't been earned yet.

[Swifty]

Loria took Stanton and Logan to the Heat game tonight. I mean, that has to count for something right? Usually it's the family courtside when Loria goes, tonight it was the corner outfielders.
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Also, I'm very concerned about what's going to happen with Stanton. He strikes me as the guy who just wants to go play for his hometown team (Dodgers - and LOL at the thought of him and Kemp in the same outfield, should have happened here (BEINFEST!) but that's just flat out stupid if it happens).

But I don't think we're at the point where we jump off the bridge. If this coming season finishes with (a) him having a monster year and (b) still no extension existing, he's probably gone.

[Miamarlin21]

I don't think he's gone just yet, Swifty. He still won't even be arbitration eligible this upcoming off-season.

[Bobbob1313]

Yeah, he's four years away from free agency after this year.

I still maintain that I think he gets the Hanley mid-season surprise extension.

[lou]

Stanton could sign a 6-7 year extension and be a free agent in his prime at 29-30 to go back to California. It makes sense for him to take a "Cargo" type deal during/after this season to set himself up a full year away from payday, and still have the opportunity for the super deal in his prime. I think this is a non-issue.