All Aboard the Pujols Express, From Fringe to Mainstream

[Big Z]

Remember yeaaaars back when Vlad Guerrero was reported to have been close to a 1 yr 17 million with the Fish?

[Party]

Why not both?

[Bobbob1313]

I hope that these rumblings aren't so that Loria and Co. can say hey we gave it a try but couldn't make it happen, but here's another John Buck.

I must have missed that storyline...

[dgriot]

This very much scares me considering 1) Their history is not in baseball, they're fans and 2) what it resulted in this past offseason (I remember in the offseason there was an article that said Maybin for a couple relievers and John Buck on a 3 year was orchestrated by Loria and not the FO [John Buck not that bad but the Maybin one will kill me for a long time])

I think this is the article you're referring to:

But for fans who must assign credit or blame, know this: It was Loria who told his front office to sign catcher John Buck and reliever Randy Choate and ordered that other bullpen upgrades be made. It was Loria who wanted to trade Cameron Maybin and Andrew Miller because he ran out of patience with both. It was Loria who initiated the re-hiring of infield coach Perry Hill and signed off on an extension to Ricky Nolasco.

It was Loria who called for trading Dan Uggla because he didn’t want to give him a fifth year on a contract and didn’t want to lose him for nothing next winter. It was Loria who recommended Mike Dunn to his front office more than a year ago; Larry Beinfest requested and got Dunn when he made the Uggla/ Omar Infante deal in November. It was Loria who wanted Javier Vazquez so much that he gave him $7 million for one year.

I think more positive/neutral than negative on the whole thus far, but yeah, still unease about potential brash moves in the future.

[Big Z]

I think this is the article you're referring to:



I think more positive/neutral than negative on the whole thus far, but yeah, still unease about potential brash moves in the future.

Loria4Prez?

I think Loria should go do some work for the Dolphins, Henne would've been gone by now!

[emkayseven]

Por que no las dos?!?!?!

[Swifty]

All things considered, that Loria involvement is pretty OK. You might even go so far as to say it's better than any of Beinfest's last 3 off seasons.

As for Pujols, my thought is two fold, one you're moving into the stadium and, as far as I'm aware, ticket sales are not where they want them to be. Yes the 9 rows of the diamond club have sold out, but there's no multi-season commitment down there. They're afraid of a one-and-done; a big move (not necessarily exclusively Pujols) means there's at least plausible interest beyond 2012.

Two, let's be honest, the scratching a clawing to find a way to "maintain" the Hanley/JJ core is silly. We've won nothing with them, and we haven't exactly come all that close, either. Clearly they need a lot of help. Doing this kind of does that. Maybe it doesn't work, but at least it's better to take a shot at improving a lot than kind of treading water with a team that, save for Stanton/LoMo/Dominguez because the jury's out there, looks like an 80-84 win core in a good year.

[lou]

Two, let's be honest, the scratching a clawing to find a way to "maintain" the Hanley/JJ core is silly. We've won nothing with them, and we haven't exactly come all that close, either. Clearly they need a lot of help. Doing this kind of does that. Maybe it doesn't work, but at least it's better to take a shot at improving a lot than kind of treading water with a team that, save for Stanton/LoMo/Dominguez because the jury's out there, looks like an 80-84 win core in a good year.

I think the bigger question does Pujols/Prince even change that win projection drastically compared to the rotation issues. I think these guys will stabilize offensively (with a better bench and help at 3B/CF) and the bullpen is fine. I just have a hard time projecting more than 500 IP from Johnson/Anibal/Nolasco, and where the hell are those other 500 SP innings coming from next year?

The lineup can be sexy as hell, but if this turns into an either/or situation of Pujols or rotation, it's a no brainer "baseball" decision to go pitching. But then you don't sell tickets so you're fucked because no one gives a crap about guys like Mark Buerhle and Edwin Jackson.

It's an interesting front office decision. They need to go get Pujols/Prince/Reyes to appeal to the fan base, but they also need to keep Javy and sign a lefty starter and that's going to cost a lot. Not developing a starting pitcher in the 03-07 drafts is really killing them right now. Volstad, West, Thompson, Tucker, Marceaux, Allison, Sinkbiel, Tankersley, Kensing. Nothing. (They also drafted Vargas during this time, who is the best one, but he was obviously traded).

I'm interested in seeing what they do. Loria might have to have an "all in" 2012 year and go a high 90s/low 100s to get everything done, and then ween payroll down the next couple seasons to $80s levels.

[Big Z]

No, no.

And damn you negative Nancy!

I cannot say how much I love this.

I think the bigger question does Pujols/Prince even change that win projection drastically compared to the rotation issues. I think these guys will stabilize offensively (with a better bench and help at 3B/CF) and the bullpen is fine. I just have a hard time projecting more than 500 IP from Johnson/Anibal/Nolasco, and where the hell are those other 500 SP innings coming from next year?

The lineup can be sexy as hell, but if this turns into an either/or situation of Pujols or rotation, it's a no brainer "baseball" decision to go pitching. But then you don't sell tickets so you're fucked because no one gives a crap about guys like Mark Buerhle and Edwin Jackson.

It's an interesting front office decision. They need to go get Pujols/Prince/Reyes to appeal to the fan base, but they also need to keep Javy and sign a lefty starter and that's going to cost a lot. Not developing a starting pitcher in the 03-07 drafts is really killing them right now. Volstad, West, Thompson, Tucker, Marceaux, Allison, Sinkbiel, Tankersley, Kensing. Nothing. (They also drafted Vargas during this time, who is the best one, but he was obviously traded).

I'm interested in seeing what they do. Loria might have to have an "all in" 2012 year and go a high 90s/low 100s to get everything done, and then ween payroll down the next couple seasons to $80s levels.

Very well said by both of you. I don't think Pujols will put that much asses in our seats, that would be worth spending 25-30 mil/yr for 7-10 seasons. I'm with going all out on pitching though, we need to stabilize our rotation and make sure we have backups in case one of our top guns go down (JJ this year).

I'm all in for trading Nolasco and Cogz, plus others (without hurting our core) in order to improve. Like Lou said, we need help at CF/3B and our rotation. This should be our main focus this offseason, not Pujols. I'm fine with Gaby at first, he's no Pujols, but he gets the job done very well.

Do what you need to do to bring CJ as well as another SP (Buehrle?) down here and try to keep Javy as a # 5.

Maybe we can then deal Nolasco & Cogz for a CF (I guess Jacoby is off this list with the yr he's having).

Betemit is a guy that would be a nice backup plan for Dominguez.

A winning team will bring people to the stadium.

[....J....]

http://twitter.com/#!/Buster_ESPN/st...39180471681024

Short of JJ, Hanley and Stanton being lost in the first game of the season due to a horrific tarp rolling accident, this is hands down the worst thing u can hear as a marlins fan. There's a reason why they never let other teams speak to Hill or Beinfest. They've surrounded themselves w/baseball people because they're not.

[Erick]

Am I the only one who doesn't even want the Pujols thing to happen? Like...if they want to spend that kind of money, it can be spent in a better way.

[....J....]

^^^^^^


agree Erick but I don't think we need to worry bout the pujols thing happening

[lou]

Am I the only one who doesn't even want the Pujols thing to happen? Like...if they want to spend that kind of money, it can be spent in a better way.

Which is exactly the problem. It's not the smart baseball decision, which is what you primarily care about, on the field product. The smart baseball decision is to sign a lot of guys on 1-2 year deals to patch holes and hope Hanley and Johnson are healthy next year, and Stanton, Morrison, Nolasco, and Anibal blossom into their upsides. But that move likely doesn't cause excitement (ticket sales) moving into the stadium as the typical fan doesn't really care or understand what a collection of say, Mark Buerhle, Ryan Madson, Wilson Betemit, Coco Crisp, and bringing back Infante and Dobbs, would do for depth. Boring!

Which is exactly my point above. Loria is kind of in a no win situation and it's either all in or nothing. Being a jackass and having a half assed offseason is the worst possible thing he could do right now. He has to make an OOMPH move for marketing/pr/good faith reasons, and also has to bring in 4-5 legitimate players to fill big time holes. One of those could easily be accomplished at around $80-85 million. Doing both, will push payroll north of $100 million. That doesn't seem like Loria to me, but hey. We'll see.

I think the smart thing to do is go for broke, bring in Pujols/Prince/Reyes and a big starting pitcher, sell out 2012, have everyone marvel at the stadium which is no doubt going to kick ass, lockdown the 2015 all star game in the process (and force ticket sales to guarantee spots years in advance), and put the best product possible on the field for the last three years we have Hanley signed. Payroll can be weened down in future years with all the pitchers coming off the books and by doing smart things like buying out Stanton's arbitration and free agency years now. Their revenue has sucked for years and they are shelling out some money for the stadium, but it's really time to have that Miami Heat moment when the Dolphins and Canes are at arguably their 30 year low and go for that sporting dollar.

If they do it, I don't know. But save for winning a world series, this will be the biggest opportunity to generate offseason buzz for the foreseeable future. I figured the team would be much better this year so maybe they wouldn't have to go all in with a nice 85,86 sort of win season, but they gotta do something and they know it. Going to be fun to see what the reaction is.

[Omar]

Why is patching holes, hoping for history to not repeat itself (with JJ), and continue to hope that everyone hits (again, hoping history doesn't repeat itself) on their potential the smart baseball decision?

[Swifty]

I mean, if we were the Yankees, yeah, Pujols is not a smart baseball decision, but I can guarandamntee that it's not as if we have a $100 mil payroll penciled in for next season and it's either go bonkers on Pujols or spend it elsewhere. I am pretty confident that if Pujols is willing to play for $X, he's going to be a Marlin. That does not mean that failing to land Pujols means $X is invested in the team regardless for 2012.
--------------------
Plus, I love Hanley, but he's moving on to year #2 of not being "Hanley." If he were Jose Reyes, we'd be having a lot of fun making fun of Mets fans hoping he figures it out.

I just don't get the play it safe mindset right now.

Stanton's extension should be mutually exclusive from whatever offseason moves we make, other than extending him, there's nothing we can do in house that I view as a good baseball decision (relying on Hanley/JJ/Ricky). I think if 2010 and 2011 have demonstrated anything to us it's that, save for Stanton, we have luxury pieces, not cornerstones.