Is Beinfest to Blame for Marlins' Skid?

[Marlinsws9703]

What were your expectations in 2006, out of curiosity? We were widely panned and expected to lose 100 games. There's a reason Girardi was so heralded that year, but you can't put all the praise on him and not Beinfest. We had 4 rookie pitchers with 10+ wins, Girardi didn't draft or trade for those guys. Hanley after a weak AA campaign won ROY in 2006. Uggla was a rule 5 pick who if it weren't for Pokey Reese going MIA never would have even won the job.

And to say 2003 was giftwrapped is laughable. There was a good core, but look at what Beinfest and Co. did that added to that team:




Now, I posted all this to show a point. It wasn't even just the big moves like Dontrelle, Mark Redman (how did we all forget him?), Pavano (3/5 of our championship rotation!), JP, Pudge, Urbina and Conine. Just looking at THOSE moves those would be HUMONGOUS additions to the team.

Then there's the other small moves. We got Mike Mordecai and HOW FUCKING CLUTCH WAS THAT GUY IN 2003. He was basically a throw in. Spooneybarger was solid in his short time in the pen. He gave us 33 outings of 4 ERA ball which, as we've seen from the bullpens of the last few years, is pretty solid. A guy like Allen Levrault gave us a 3.86 ERA from the pen and 0.3 WAR. Phelps was able to start 7 games for us and gave us a 4 ERA out of the pen and a 0.4 WAR. A Chad Fox pickup in early August gave us 25 innings of a 2.13 ERA, 200 ERA+ and 0.9 WAR. LENNY FUCKING HARRIS! Rick Helling put up a 0.55 ERA in his time with us. He gave up ONE RUN in 16.1 innings down the stretch. How much did that help?

So all these "pieces" and role players - which almost everyone admits is what wins championships - were pulled together by Beinfest. 60% of our starting rotation was Beinfest. Our leadoff hitter, MVP, and closer were Beinfest. TELL ME HOW THAT WAS GIFTWRAPPED FOR HIM.If you want to say they weren't all his guys, fine, because they weren't. But to say it was gift wrapped for him is one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever read in all my years on Marlins forums, and I've known fip for 10 years.

MK, I believe he was referring to the way in which they won it. Now I feel weird posting about this since I was on the other side of this at that time but let me tell you firsthand the Cubs did giftwrap that series for you and if it weren't for that you would not have gotten a shot to beat the Yankees. They had hammered you 8-3 at home in game 4 and they had no hope in that 8th inning of game 6 until the fan did his thing. But as I explained to Chicago fans about a month ago I super-slow-moed that play and Alou would not have caught that foul ball even if the fan hadn't been there. My point is, they choked that game and the series away trust me I seen and felt it happen. So I don't think he was referring to how that team was built I do believe he meant how they ended up winning it. I couldn't say us or we when talking about this not because of "oh, he must be going back cause we've lost 13/15" Nope, not even considering it but I hope everyone understands I can't act like I was rooting for the fish then because I wasn't.

[MiamiHomer]

[emkayseven]

guaranteed he was talking about it being giftwrapped for beinfest by Dombrowski

[Ramp]

MK, I believe he was referring to the way in which they won it. Now I feel weird posting about this since I was on the other side of this at that time but let me tell you firsthand the Cubs did giftwrap that series for you and if it weren't for that you would not have gotten a shot to beat the Yankees. They had hammered you 8-3 at home in game 4 and they had no hope in that 8th inning of game 6 until the fan did his thing. But as I explained to Chicago fans about a month ago I super-slow-moed that play and Alou would not have caught that foul ball even if the fan hadn't been there. My point is, they choked that game and the series away trust me I seen and felt it happen. So I don't think he was referring to how that team was built I do believe he meant how they ended up winning it. I couldn't say us or we when talking about this not because of "oh, he must be going back cause we've lost 13/15" Nope, not even considering it but I hope everyone understands I can't act like I was rooting for the fish then because I wasn't.

yea, he was definitely referring to how the team was built

not the fact that the Cubs couldn't get Mike Mordecai out

[Marlinsws9703]

yea, he was definitely referring to how the team was built

not the fact that the Cubs couldn't get Mike Mordecai out

Gotcha. Thats just how what I gathered from reading this whole thread my bad

[lou]

Tampa Bay's GM did it, so can Beinfest.

2002 – BJ (1), Gomes (8)
2003 – Delmon (1), Jaso (12th)
2004 – Niemann (1), Brignac (2), Davis (3), McGee (4), F. Perez (7), Sonnastine (13)
2005 – Hellickson (4)
2006 – Longoria (1), Jennings (10)
2007 – Price (1), Moore (8)
2008 – Beckham (1)

Stars – Longoria, Price
Potential Stars/Above Average – Hellickson, Jennings, Beckham(generous)
Good major leaguers – Delmon, Niemann, Davis, BJ
Potential Good Major Leaguers – McGee, Moore
Average Players – Gomes, Brignac, Jaso
Role/Bench/Pen Players – Sonnastine, F. Perez

I don’t think I really missed anyone to major (I’m sure a reliever or two), but I admit it was a quick blow through of these drafts so there might be some role guys overlooked. In my recollection, they have no significant Rule V signing but feel free to amend.

Marlins during this span

2002 – Hermida (1), Andino (2), Johnson (4), Olsen (6)
2003 – Nothing
2004 – Vargas (2), Mobley (22)
2005 – Volstad (1), Hayes (2), Gaby (4), Morrison (22), and Uggla (Rule V)
2006 – Coghlan (1), Cousins (3), O. Martinez (11)
2007 – Dominguez (1), Stanton (2), Cishek (5)
2008 – Hand (2)

Stars – Johnson, Uggla
Potential Stars/Above Average – Stanton, Morrison
Good Majors Leaguers – Gaby, Vargas, Coghlan
Potential Good Major Leaguers – Dominguez
Average/Average Potential – Hand
Role Players/Bench/Bullpen – Volstad, Andino, Hayes, Mobley, Cousins, O. Martinez, Cishek, Olsen, and Hermida

Really when it comes down to it, the Rays are developing an extra starting player every other year compared to Marlins draft picks. (And the Rays have had better draft picks during this time.) I don't want to argue any of my placements. They are relatively fair and doesn't matter if you want someone like Coghlan at average versus good.

I’m just saying, if we’re calling Tampa amazing, Beinfest is not far behind even with blowing 12+ first/second rounders during 2002-2008. Tampa is just better at retaining their own talent (Crawford for years, Shields for years) longer than Beinfest (Cabrera, Beckett, Burnett, I don't even remember when Vargas got shipped out) because of smarter payroll philosophies, so there is this impression that Tampa is all homegrown and such. Marlins have not had the longevity with the players with is the only difference.

I'm just saying. You can't cherry pick over a 7 year drafting span, and I cut it off at 08 as the 09-10 guys aren't MLB ready yet to be real assets (and tampa had a dozen picks top 2 rounds in 2011). Beinfest has not done a bad job here. We're really Hermida, Volstad, and Olsen working out from being well well well above average as a drafting organization.

There have been mistakes, but any sort of objective analysis of this doesn't make our front office a liability at all.

[Marlinsws9703]

We've been losing since Marlins90210 jumped ship. Please root for the Phillies for a while. kthxbai

Was waiting for this

[MiamiHomer]

YOU WERE ASKING FOR IT

[emkayseven]

no he wasn't, and we all know John Mallee is to blame

lay off 9703

[Emperor]

Okay. Call me when we have 17 straight #1 overalls.

If it gets us two division crowns in 3 years against the most unfair odds in all major sports (Boston & Yankee money), I'll take it. Its better than being mediocre at best every year.

[MiamiHomer]

If it gets us two division crowns in 3 years against the most unfair odds in all major sports (Boston & Yankee money), I'll take it. Its better than being mediocre at best every year.

[emkayseven]

Emperor, can you please answer my questions?

1) What were your expectations in 2006 that we underachieved that year;, and
2) How was 2003 gift wrapped for Beinfest if he made all the moves I posted?

Thanks,
The Management

[Emperor]

Emperor, can you please answer my questions?

1) What were your expectations in 2006 that we underachieved that year;, and
2) How was 2003 gift wrapped for Beinfest if he made all the moves I posted?

Thanks,
The Management

1) I had no expectations in 2006, and we actually overachieved every year.
2) I doubt Beinfest could have or would have put together all of that 2003 roster himself. He was given a great base that he had to supplement to get us over the top. The Pudge signings and Uggla signings are just pure luck and nothing else. No one expected Pudge to play that well, and Uggla would not have even gotten his chance except that Pokey Reese decided to go AWOL two days into training camp.

[Todd]

There are some things not to like about Beinfest, such as his fascination with low power speedy guys with no plate discipline that cant hit for average, and he aint the best drafter in the world(although I dont blame this entirely on him, as he is hamstrung by the Marlins FO almost refusing to spend money on the draft)...but considering the budgetary restraints forced on him, he maximizes the meager resources he does have and more often than not puts together a team that is competitive, although always missing one or two pieces, once again because of money.

[Emperor]

There are some things not to like about Beinfest, such as his fascination with low power speedy guys with no plate discipline that cant hit for average, and he aint the best drafter in the world(although I dont blame this entirely on him, as he is hamstrung by the Marlins FO almost refusing to spend money on the draft)...but considering the budgetary restraints forced on him, he maximizes the meager resources he does have and more often than not puts together a team that is competitive, although always missing one or two pieces, once again because of money.

So if that is the case, that you need to maximize your homegrown talent, it means you must put the greatest effort into the draft that you can. How can you fail that many times when its what you are concentrating your efforts on ? If you are failing at the draft, then you need to rethink your draft strategy. If you can't or won't rethink it, you are a detriment to the eventual success of the team.