Is Beinfest to Blame for Marlins' Skid?

[Mainge]

I'm going to give you a 20 piece lego, paper plates, and gum. You have 5 years to build a rollercoaster.

Good luck.

[Emperor]

Even given his budget? What do you expect him to do with 20 million a year (or whatever absurdly low amound he had in 2006 onward)?

I believe the Rays have had a lower budget than the Marlins for the last 2 years. I'll take what they have done, over what we have done, ANYDAY.

Its time that the budget excuses are stopped.
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2003 was gift wrapped?

Absolutely. Dombrowski put together the core of that team.

[Swifty]

The Rays were also a lot worse than we were in the five years leading in to that stretch you reference. Those early firsts (Longoria, Price) had a lot to do with doing more with less money.

[Ramp]

If you think we overachieve then your expectations are way lower than mine. He has had 9 seasons to put together a winner, using his formula and has failed every year. 2003 was gift wrapped for him. But using his formula and his aquisition talents since 2006 he's way under achieved I believe. 5 seasons is long enough to put it together. If you can't, then adios amigo.

Say it was gift wrapped for him (which is retarded).... He still got us a ring. One ring in 9 years is pretty damn good.

When you get a chance, please explain how 2003 was gift wrapped for him.

I'll go pop some advil just in case.

[MiamiHomer]

I believe the Rays have had a lower budget than the Marlins for the last 2 years. I'll take what they have done, over what we have done, ANYDAY.

Its time that the budget excuses are stopped.
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Absolutely. Dombrowski put together the core of that team.

[Swifty]

C'mon Ramp, he's dumb, but he's more or less right, '03 is as much or more Dombrowski and the continued devolution of our roster under Beinfest proves as much.

This isn't 'Beinfest is terrible' but he's overly obsessed with speed and velocity and it's problematic for a team with a budget to be enamored with a flawed and antiquated mindset.

[Ramp]

I don't like Beinfest and I think it's funny Emperor believes all we do is stand up for this guy. Half the board hates him but he deserves plenty of credit over the last 9 seasons.

[Swifty]

Miggy, Luis, Beckett, Gonzalez, Lowell, Lee, Penny and Looper were huge parts of that team and were Dombrowski guys; Pudge, Pierre, Dontrelle, Urbina and Pavano were the Beinfest guys.

One doesn't win without the other, but that Dombrowski core is as big or bigger than the Beinfest complements; we made another two runs in '04' and '05 with Miggy/Beckett/Lowell.

[Ramp]

They absolutely were but Beinfest should get credit for the moves surrounding those players as well.

And with how well Pudge, JP, Willis, Urbina and Pavano played, you could argue this core was just as important as the Dombrowski core. Like you said though, one doesn't win without the other.

[lou]

Missing on all the 1st round talent has killed our teams immeditate future. Yes he hit on some lower round talent, everyone does that, and we've hit on no more or less lower round talent than any other team, but my God missing on ALL of those 1st rounders, when you have the HUGE pool to pick from, c'mon dude, that is just more than "bad luck" that is someone that just doesn't have the best approach to his draft.

Then the Caberra trade - you cannot trade a talent like him, and end up with nothing for it. Most FO people would have been fired by now on other teams for such a blunder.

Why does everyone want to give this guy more time ? He's had 9 seasons to put together a winner, and he hasn't made the playoffs with "his guys". WE've seen enough.

What? The Marlins immediate future isn't killed because we missed on 1st rounders. The Marlins have an excellent young position core with Hanley, Stanton, Morrison, Gaby, Coghlan, Buck, and I'll give them Dominguez, they have three above average starters including an ace, and they have a good young bullpen. They also have a weaker farm, but there are some alright assets in James, Hand, Yelich, Ozuna, and a few other guys who do project to be MLB players. Most guys on the team/organization are controlled for minimum 3-5 more seasons. This is far far far from a disaster. Could it be better. ABSOLUTELY! But don't knee jerk to a horrible June standings.

And everyone does not draft Stanton and Morrison caliber players. Less than 5 of those guys get called up every year, and we are lucky enough to have two of them.

Is he great? No. He has absolutely missed on a lot of draft picks and he should have bought out Cabrera in 2004/2005 for 7 years which is, by far, his single biggest mistake, but he does enough good to overcome the bad decisions. Really, he does. And when combined with piecing together half of his team with "legos, paper plates, and gum," he's done a pretty impressive job. This is a very competitive baseball team.

Like I said, if he does crap with payroll for free agency, or spends it dumb on $12 closers, doesn't do arbitration buy outs (Stanton, Morrison ASAP), and still drafts slot or under in the draft, I think it speaks for itself he won't be around very long. I''m under the belief they understand their shortcomings and a lot of it has to do with not being able afford that extra 2-3 players they always seem to need.

We'll see. But this is really post 2013 after we see what he does with the money. Also, it's important to note Beinfest/Hill under contract through 2015. Cutting them now is a massive expense for Loria.

[Emperor]

I'm going to give you a 20 piece lego, paper plates, and gum. You have 5 years to build a rollercoaster.

Good luck.

Tampa Bay's GM did it, so can Beinfest.

[Mainge]

Okay. Call me when we have 17 straight #1 overalls.

[emkayseven]

If you think we overachieve then your expectations are way lower than mine. He has had 9 seasons to put together a winner, using his formula and has failed every year. 2003 was gift wrapped for him. But using his formula and his aquisition talents since 2006 he's way under achieved I believe. 5 seasons is long enough to put it together. If you can't, then adios amigo.

What were your expectations in 2006, out of curiosity? We were widely panned and expected to lose 100 games. There's a reason Girardi was so heralded that year, but you can't put all the praise on him and not Beinfest. We had 4 rookie pitchers with 10+ wins, Girardi didn't draft or trade for those guys. Hanley after a weak AA campaign won ROY in 2006. Uggla was a rule 5 pick who if it weren't for Pokey Reese going MIA never would have even won the job.

And to say 2003 was giftwrapped is laughable. There was a good core, but look at what Beinfest and Co. did that added to that team:

March 27, 2002 - Traded Antonio Alfonseca and Matt Clement to the Chicago Cubs. Received Jose Cueto (minors), Ryan Jorgensen, Julian Tavarez and Dontrelle Willis.

July 11, 2002 - Traded Ryan Dempster to the Cincinnati Reds. Received Juan Encarnacion, Wilton Guerrero and Ryan Snare. Traded Cliff Floyd, Wilton Guerrero, Claudio Vargas and cash to the Montreal Expos. Received a player to be named later, Graeme Lloyd, Mike Mordecai, Carl Pavano and Justin Wayne. The Montreal Expos sent Donald Levinski (minors) (August 5, 2002) to the Florida Marlins to complete the trade.

November 16, 2002 - Traded Vic Darensbourg, Charles Johnson, Pablo Ozuna and Preston Wilson to the Colorado Rockies. Received Mike Hampton, Juan Pierre and cash.

November 18, 2002 - Traded Mike Hampton and cash to the Atlanta Braves. Received Ryan Baker (minors) and Tim Spooneybarger.

November 25, 2002 - Signed Chad Allen as a free agent. Signed Allen Levrault as a free agent.

December 19, 2002 - Signed Tommy Phelps as a free agent.

January 11, 2003 - Traded Rob Henkel (minors), Gary Knotts and Nate Robertson to the Detroit Tigers. Received Jerrod Fuell (minors) and Mark Redman.

January 28, 2003 - Signed Ivan Rodriguez as a free agent.

July 11, 2003 (Standings) - Traded Will Smith (minors), Adrian Gonzalez and Ryan Snare to the Texas Rangers. Received Ugueth Urbina.

August 8, 2003 (Standings) - Signed Chad Fox as a free agent.

August 11, 2003 (Standings) - Signed Lenny Harris as a free agent.

August 22, 2003 (Standings) - Signed Rick Helling as a free agent.

August 31, 2003 (Standings) - Traded Don Levinski (minors) and Denny Bautista to the Baltimore Orioles. Received Jeff Conine.

Now, I posted all this to show a point. It wasn't even just the big moves like Dontrelle, Mark Redman (how did we all forget him?), Pavano (3/5 of our championship rotation!), JP, Pudge, Urbina and Conine. Just looking at THOSE moves those would be HUMONGOUS additions to the team.

Then there's the other small moves. We got Mike Mordecai and HOW CLUTCH WAS THAT GUY IN 2003. He was basically a throw in. Spooneybarger was solid in his short time in the pen. He gave us 33 outings of 4 ERA ball which, as we've seen from the bullpens of the last few years, is pretty solid. A guy like Allen Levrault gave us a 3.86 ERA from the pen and 0.3 WAR. Phelps was able to start 7 games for us and gave us a 4 ERA out of the pen and a 0.4 WAR. A Chad Fox pickup in early August gave us 25 innings of a 2.13 ERA, 200 ERA+ and 0.9 WAR. LENNY FREAKING HARRIS! Rick Helling put up a 0.55 ERA in his time with us. He gave up ONE RUN in 16.1 innings down the stretch. How much did that help?

So all these "pieces" and role players - which almost everyone admits is what wins championships - were pulled together by Beinfest. 60% of our starting rotation was Beinfest. Our leadoff hitter, MVP, and closer were Beinfest. TELL ME HOW THAT WAS GIFTWRAPPED FOR HIM.

If you want to say they weren't all his guys, fine, because they weren't. But to say it was gift wrapped for him is one of the dumbest things I've ever read in all my years on Marlins forums, and I've known FFIPA for 10 years.

[Ramp]

gauntlet, slammed.

[Namaste]

That was a very reputable post, MK7.