Ballpark Area Development

[CrimsonCane]

The discussion about transit options inspired me to cook up a map that'll hopefully serve as a basis for discussions about how the area around the stadium is/ought to develop.

Here's the map:


Legend
BLUE - Residential
GREEN - Commercial
RED - Undeveloped Land
ORANGE - Stadium-owned Land
PURPLE - Culmer Metrorail Station

I took a Google Map screenshot of the stadium area and then used StreetView to get a feel for what types of buildings were up in each area.

My thoughts: I think that the area that would constitute the walk between Culmer and the ballpark is the best location for bars/restaurants to start developing. The green zones along 12th Avenue right after the bridge are not the best businesses for encouraging people to stick around the ballpark before or after games (I think I counted about 3 body shops in the immediate area and some marina-related businesses that are understandable given the proximity to the Miami River). There is also a Miami Dade Fire Rescue building in that area. But, the huge zone of red right along the water seems to be ideal for a restaurant/bar complex. Although there are better waterfront locations than the Miami River, it's still riverside land that can create a pretty cool pre and post game atmosphere if executed properly and it's only a 8 minute walk from the ballpark. The huge blue area that encircles 13th Ct. along 7th avenue probably would've been the best area, but I don't think that's ever going to be possible. It's a massive apartment complex and, if I recall correctly, I believe it's government run. If so, there is no chance that it'll ever be redeveloped.

[darknight]

Any word on what's going to happen to the "Bowl Bar" on the corner of 17th and 7th? I've never been in there, but it looks like it would be a cool place to hang before/after games.

[Party]

CC:

Miami River Commission.
--------------------
I would love to see some parkland along the river. That section of Miami has almost no parkland or green spaces.

[CrimsonCane]

I would love to see some parkland along the river. That section of Miami has almost no parkland or green spaces.

It's definitely a huge need in that area. And, it's part of the Miami21 (long-term plan for the city) proposals.

Here's the proposed layout (I added the orange square to designate the ballpark's location):



And, here's what it looks like on a map:

[Fish Tank Frenzy]

The Little Havana area especially around the Orange Bowl needs a bull dozer and some vision. They need a light rail system or trolley system to link up downtown with this area. I love the green spaces they intend on adding, with the green space just outside on the stadium grounds it wouold make it a great place to hang out.

CC about the previous thread, the Vizcaya stop was thought about for the riders coming from the south. I figured that Vizcaya is the closest stop from the south, plus the Vizcaya is much safer than say a Culmer station. Aswell for previous games at the OB, I had taken the metro to Vizcaya then a transfer to the OB is what we use to do, having the bus go straight up 17th Ave, but I am glad to see that they have been putting a thought into the best mix of public transportation to the new stadium.

[Emperor]

Crimson have ever been to Miami ? I see you are from Mass. If you have never been to the area down there you would realize its not an area where anything except on that immediate stadium property will be sustainable for business. The surrounding area from the stadium is full of working class/lower income immigrants who don't have enough discretionary income to sustain a restaurant/bar business during the off-season & down time. That's why this was not the best location for the stadium, and the disappointment of the Marlins was real when they got turned down for the downtown development. Bicentennial Park would have been so fucking unreal & off the charts for this stadium, it would have made for amazing atmosphere and development possibilities, but the Little Havana site limits this unless you tear down a few blocks surrounding the stadium.

As for the Bowl Bar.....that place was a dive (and has remained so I'm sure) since I was a kid back in the 1960's.

[Party]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification

Wrigleyville in the 60s and 70s was a poor neighborhood with a significant drug and gang problem. Neighborhoods don't stay the same forever.

Just 15 years ago the Bicentennial Park area was empty lots and low-rises.

CC is from Miami.

[CrimsonCane]

Crimson have ever been to Miami ?

I was born and raised in Miami. I've been in Cambridge for 7 years for school, but I've returned every summer to work in Miami and I'll be returning to Miami once I finish law school.

As for the area itself, I've been there quite a few times back when it was the Orange Bowl. I know its reputation. And, as my intial post suggested, I virtually looked around the entire area with Google Streetview to make sure the map was as accurate as possible. (I literally went block by block to see where there were empty lots, homes, businesses, etc.)

Now, on to some actual statistics. I view the ballpark area as one circumscribed by the following boundaries: NW 27th Avenue (West), Miami River (North and East), and SW 8th Street (South). [Map of Area]

That area alone contains approximately 66,643 people. It is definitely predominantly lower class, but it's not exclusively so. (Approximately 10% of the area population lives in households making over $50,000, which is above average for Miami) It's also worth noting that the densest neighborhoods in that area are the ones within walking distance of the stadium and the development area I highlighted.

Furthermore, the stuff I posted about potential sites for development was based on a number of factors. First, I was looking for land within walking distance that was currently undeveloped (empty lots) because those will be the easiest and cheapest to acquire. Second, the stadium is surrounded by residential housing (as shown by the map at the top of this thread) so it's going to be difficult to get anything built in those areas because you'd have to buy out the residents and, even if you can get that, you might be zoned out from commercial development anyway. Third, I was looking long-term and riverfront land is a significantly more attractive venue years down the road than something inland (especially considering the city of Miami's ambitions to encourage development along the Miami River). If you wait until the land is ideal, there will likely be a huge condo right where you planned to build.

Lastly, I wasn't suggesting anything ambitious either. I actually wouldn't mind a divey dockside restaurant and bar in that area if it's executed properly. For example, a venue that has lots of outdoor space and minimal indoor seating lowers operating expenses and makes it easier to downsize in off-peak times. Sports bars also would appear to have easier time surviving even during off-peak times because there are always sports to watch even when baseball season is over. Wrigleyville is a vibrant area when baseball isn't being played because those same sports bars become hubs to watch college football, NFL, NBA and NHL games. I don't see why a local bar/restaurant that has TVs showing sports year-round can't survive in the area especially if they have the obligatory window selling cuban coffee.

[Emperor]

I was born and raised in Miami. I've been in Cambridge for 7 years for school, but I've returned every summer to work in Miami and I'll be returning to Miami once I finish law school.

As for the area itself, I've been there quite a few times back when it was the Orange Bowl. I know its reputation. And, as my intial post suggested, I virtually looked around the entire area with Google Streetview to make sure the map was as accurate as possible. (I literally went block by block to see where there were empty lots, homes, businesses, etc.)

Now, on to some actual statistics. I view the ballpark area as one circumscribed by the following boundaries: NW 27th Avenue (West), Miami River (North and East), and SW 8th Street (South). [Map of Area]

That area alone contains approximately 66,643 people. It is definitely predominantly lower class, but it's not exclusively so. (Approximately 10% of the area population lives in households making over $50,000, which is above average for Miami) It's also worth noting that the densest neighborhoods in that area are the ones within walking distance of the stadium and the development area I highlighted.

Furthermore, the stuff I posted about potential sites for development was based on a number of factors. First, I was looking for land within walking distance that was currently undeveloped (empty lots) because those will be the easiest and cheapest to acquire. Second, the stadium is surrounded by residential housing (as shown by the map at the top of this thread) so it's going to be difficult to get anything built in those areas because you'd have to buy out the residents and, even if you can get that, you might be zoned out from commercial development anyway. Third, I was looking long-term and riverfront land is a significantly more attractive venue years down the road than something inland (especially considering the city of Miami's ambitions to encourage development along the Miami River). If you wait until the land is ideal, there will likely be a huge condo right where you planned to build.

Lastly, I wasn't suggesting anything ambitious either. I actually wouldn't mind a divey dockside restaurant and bar in that area if it's executed properly. For example, a venue that has lots of outdoor space and minimal indoor seating lowers operating expenses and makes it easier to downsize in off-peak times. Sports bars also would appear to have easier time surviving even during off-peak times because there are always sports to watch even when baseball season is over. Wrigleyville is a vibrant area when baseball isn't being played because those same sports bars become hubs to watch college football, NFL, NBA and NHL games. I don't see why a local bar/restaurant that has TVs showing sports year-round can't survive in the area especially if they have the obligatory window selling cuban coffee.

I'll tell you why I believe a sports bar friendly restaurant would fail around there, just look at the TV ratings for sports in the Miami market. We are consistently lower than our market size (which I believe is around 11th largest). When you look at any ratings, even the Dolphins they don't get the market ratings that teams in other cities get. The ethnic population argument aside, they still are way lower than they should be. This is why I feel, along with a lot of people, that this stadium will not be the panacea many are expecting for the Marlins attendance woes. The 1st year will have a really good number, perhaps topping 2.5 million, and the 2nd year they may still be getting a boost but lets be honest that will wear off soon enough, and then you will have to rely on the team being good enough to draw fans. Right now they are counting on a young core of what look to be slightly above average players (without Stanton's potential, lets face it, they would be mediocre potential at best). Is that going to be good enough to draw in the casual fans they will need to make the kind of loot necessary to put together a championship caliber team ? At this point I think too many factors say it won't, and building a sports oriented bar in an area of town that is less than attractive to those who live out of the area, is just a foolhardy venture, and one that I would recommend against if I were the bank loaning for that project.

[CrimsonCane]

So, what's your proposal? Develop nothing? It doesn't take a whole lot of vision to be a critic.

And, my suggestions were nothing more than suggestions. The area isn't ideal. No one suggested that it was. But, despite the area's limitations, I'm think it's pretty pointless to just say, "This place is and forever will be a shit hole." Areas improve over time.

My thoughts were not intended to propose an overnight redevelopment of Little Havana. And, I'm not expecting fancy restaurants or bars to move in to the area anytime soon, if ever. But, a working knowledge of the world beyond your own pessimism would suggest that there is hope for things to improve.

Some examples:
The area around Fenway is significantly more appealing today than it was a decade ago. The Cask 'n' Flagon (landmark bar in the Fenway area) was a small little dive beloved mainly by locals until recently (5 years or so). It really wasn't until maybe 10 years ago that the whole area went more corporate with the inclusion of more upscale sports restaurants likes Game On. Game On, due to its significantly greater seating capacity forced the Cask 'n' Flagon to completely renovate so that they could remain competitive. The lovable dive quickly became what is essentially a Red Sox themed Chili's. You only need to walk around the Fenway area to see relics of the establishments that existed during the area's less gentrified past. There is a Popeye's that is literally right across from the stadium and also a super sketchy gym right next door where the son of Gerry Remy (Red Sox announcer) worked at and supposedly used it to set up steroid deliviries for Red Sox players. And, all of the bars, clubs and restaurants that surfaced along neighboring Landsdowne are clearly newly established venues.

Wrigleyville, as Claudio suggested, has a pretty similar history. The area wasn't much to talk about for decades. And, even today, the closest non-stadium dining in Wrigleyville is a McDonalds and Taco Bell. You have to walk a bit further down Clark Street before you get to the major bars.

And, again, I want to emphasize that I wasn't hoping for anything more than a no-frills place to grab a beer nearby where I'm not paying stadium prices. I don't think something like that should be beyond the realm of possibilities.

[Bobbob1313]

Gentrification!

Clap clap clap clap clap!

[CrimsonCane]

Would you ever want to walk through Overtown or Liberty City just for fun?

Whenever people list great cities to visit, they are universally cities that have been undergone gentrification. Manhattan was a different place before it turned around in the 90s. Previously, Boston's downtown had an area designated as the "Combat Zone" not to mention the high crime neighborhoods in and around the harbor (waterfront property currently undergoing redevelopment). Chicago's downtown has seen massive improvement as development extended to the South Loop and Millenium Park was finally completed. In San Francisco, Haight-Ashbury, once ground zero for the hippie movement, is totally yuppified today. Baltimore's Inner Harbor is a bright spot in a very troubled city and it wouldn't have been possible absent gentrification. Philadelphia's Center City district is now lined with tons of condos and has a developing cache of restaurants that may soon rival anything in the US outside of NYC and San Francisco. Pittsburgh has absolutely gorgeous areas of the city in and around the sports stadiums that used to be steel plants and/or factories.

For the converse, look at Detroit. In 1960, it had the highest per capita income of any city in the United States. Now, its downtown is an absolute wasteland. No new business ever moved in to replace the jobs lost in manufacturing.

Today's high wage jobs are tomorrow's middle class jobs. If you don't have a new group of high income people moving in to a city, you are likely looking at a city in decline.

[Bobbob1313]

Oh, I wasn't criticizing anything. Gentrification isn't, necessarily, a bad thing. Like most things, it's amoral. It just happens. I was just saying, that's what's gonna have to happen in that area, and it probably will.

[CrimsonCane]

My apologies. I thought the "clap clap clap clap" implied sarcasm or snark.

And, I do think it'll happen over time as well just based on demographics. Those neighborhoods are very old. About 25% of the population in that zip code is over the age of 65.

It also had already started to happen. For example, I don't know the specifics or what has become of this condo development. I haven't found any listings for it or anything, so I think the project may have been put on hold like a lot of things in Miami right after the financial collapse. But, that building is being built on NWth 12th Ave right on the other side of the river (About a 6-7 min walk from the stadium).

[Namaste]

Is Emperor, BroncoBob?