2010 Spring Training Rotation Thread

[Bobbob1313]

Ok.

Then if he "feels dominant" by June 1, they shouldn't call him up?

I mean, by whatever measure you prefer, if he's successful by June 1 and there's a spot, he should be up. Don't save the option if he can contribute.

The whole point of sending him to AAA to start the season is to get him to be successful. Whatever you want to define success by is up to you, but if he is successful, they shouldn't have a rigid timeline.

Give Miller, West and RVH the chance to pitch regularly in AAA, sort out what they need to, and whoever is best out of the three when we regularly need a 5th starter should get the call. Whichever one would break camp as the 5th starter wouldn't really get consistent work at the major league level over that first month anyways, so isn't it more important to get them consistent work and have them compete?

It's not dictating "Miller, you are absolutely getting called up May 1, we just have to see Hayden Penn pitch first." It's creating competition and giving yourself the best possible chance of seeing everyone.
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And Jesus Christ, for the last time, it's not about saving an option. I don't have a long term plan of majors in 2010, minors in 2011 for Miller. I have a huge problem with wasting the option for the sake of delaying a roster decision.

It's not just delaying a roster decision. Miller stinks right now, so he needs to prove it anyways. He's not going to do that at the major league level because we barely need a 5th starter for the first month anyways. Get him consistent starts at AAA and let him force his way up then.

The "delaying a roster decision" is to give yourself as many possible options as possible, but it's not the main point. The main point is Miller and West, specifically, need to prove they at least know where the strike zone is before we start putting them out there every day at the Major League level. That it gives you an extra month to evaluate 5 different guys (Miller, West, Hensley, RVH) is a bonus.

[Party]

Throw Miller in AAA and tie his call-up (early June) to our position in the standings. If on June 1, Miller is dominating AAA and keeping his walks down + the big club is within 5 of the PO his contract status for next season should be a second thought. If we're out of it, keep him in AAA and wait until September regardless of how good a season he is having.

We know what to expect with Penn/Meyer/Hensley in the 5th spot. If Miller is throwing like he can throw in AAA, assuming he can put together a rest of the season better than whoever is the 5th starter is a chance worth taking.

In hindsight his time has here has been severely mishandled and it makes you wonder how much being part of the Cabrera trade had to do with that. He clearly shouldn't have been with the big club in 2008. The organization should have bit the bullet for atleast the first half of the season (I realize we were short and coming off the 07 disaster). He needs long term consistency without the pressure of being a major leaguer/frequent flyer between NOLA and Miami.

Who is more likely to become a productive major league pitcher (starter or reliever): Andrew Miller or Rick Vandenhurk? Both have been similarly mishandled and at the same point in their careers and service time. No doubt, Miller has way more upside, but I wouldn't be surprised if 3 years from now RVH is putting together better numbers than Miller in some role (most likely as a reliever).

[Bobbob1313]

Miller's been mishandled since he signed a major league contract straight out of the draft. Those are almost never a good idea because you are forcing your team to rush you regardless of whether you are ready. No team in baseball wants to pay someone a couple million bucks to play against the Chris Aguila's and Jason Wood's of the world.

[lou]

lou, the primary value of the option, as I've outlined, is to use it for the best of Andrew Miller's development. The least valuable use of it is a situation of "listen, Andrew, you're our 5th starter, we like you, we just don't have any need for you until May 1, go to AAA so we can get a longer look at Hayden Penn."

If we're going to use it, use it what it's meant to be for: Miller's development. If we don't feel he's ready to contribute at the major league level, great, I won't disagree, use it to get him 20 AAA starts. If we do feel he's ready, yet send him to AAA mostly to delay us having to make a tough call on a roster crunch I have a huge problem with it being used in that manner.

Bob covered most of it, but I have to reiterate this was never about giving Hayden Penn an audition INSTEAD of someone else, and then calling up Miller/West/RVH as a prerequisite to it May 9th. This is not an either/or issue. This is, Miller is not outperforming all of these other guys, including Penn, so just stick Miller/West/RVH in AAA and not do what we've been doing, rushing them to the bigs. All I've been saying is for the overall development. If it looks like we can get similar quality innings from other sources, let the "kids" work it out at the lesser level of competition. You agree with this. I agree with this. But this is not about setting aside Miller/RVH/West just because Penn is out of options. This situation would arise if, IF, Penn or Hensley or whomever happens to beat them out. It's not a big deal to put them in AAA, even if most of us penciled all of Miller/RVH/West onto the team the whole offseason.

You are arguing a point no one is making. We're on the same page here. It's not about carelessly using options. It's about the development.
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Throw Miller in AAA and tie his call-up (early June) to our position in the standings. If on June 1, Miller is dominating AAA and keeping his walks down + the big club is within 5 of the PO his contract status for next season should be a second thought. If we're out of it, keep him in AAA and wait until September regardless of how good a season he is having.

We know what to expect with Penn/Meyer/Hensley in the 5th spot. If Miller is throwing like he can throw in AAA, assuming he can put together a rest of the season better than whoever is the 5th starter is a chance worth taking.

In hindsight his time has here has been severely mishandled and it makes you wonder how much being part of the Cabrera trade had to do with that. He clearly shouldn't have been with the big club in 2008. The organization should have bit the bullet for atleast the first half of the season (I realize we were short and coming off the 07 disaster). He needs long term consistency without the pressure of being a major leaguer/frequent flyer between NOLA and Miami.

I think you call him up when you think he is one of the best 5 starters for the team, regardless of anything. Right now, I think there would be near universal opinion he is not. But if that happens in May, so be it. I'm not to worried about his "price" for the franchise in the future. He will be very cheap for 2011 no matter if he turns into Greinke or Oliver Perez (the shitty Perez, not that one awesome year Perez). If he's going to be a longterm contributor, messing around with his service time really isn't going to effect the bottomline longterm contract prices if the Marlins turn into a non-contender. Now other guys, like Morrison, Stanton, West, hell maybe even Maybin, could drastically matter for this, but not Miller. He's unique with that MLB contract and already being renewed so close to Super2 status. He's past the point of finagling the service time. He's either going to show up for this franchise in 2010 or 2011, or he's out the door before the stadium hits. Finances be damned. All development and when he's ready.

And I also find it curious you threw Meyer in there as a potential starter. I think his conversion is permanent cause his arm didn't hold up before. Why mess with a good thing with him when he had his first success in 5 years?

[Party]

No reason whatsoever. Maybe as a worst case scenario? But yeah, agreed on him in the 'pen. There are several arms ahead of him if it came to that.

[Chewford]

I see what they did, Sean West was optioned to Who Dat Nation. He is not ready for the rotation.

[Swifty]

West and Ceda were both optioned to AAA.

http://joefrisaro.mlblogs.com/archiv..._optioned.html

[THE_REAL_MIBS]

VandenHurk will start tomorrow vrs. the Nats in Viera. Hayden Penn will follow him.

That backs up my thinking that Volstad is going to make the rotation and that VandenHurk, Penn and Miller are competing for the 5th spot.
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Andrew Miller will start Wednesday.

[Chewford]

Having VandenHurk, Penn, or Miller in a starting spot frightens me. I'd probably prefer Miller, because I think he's the only one with a chance to be a reliable starter ever in the future of the world.

[geemoney]

West and Ceda were both optioned to AAA.

http://joefrisaro.mlblogs.com/archiv..._optioned.html

For clarification purposes, Ceda was actually optioned to AA.

[BigGameFish]

Having VandenHurk, Penn, or Miller in a starting spot frightens me. I'd probably prefer Miller, because I think he's the only one with a chance to be a reliable starter ever in the future of the world.

What makes you think he would ever be a reliable starter? He has never shown anything to make me think that. I really like Vandenhurk. He has posted the best WHIP and K/9 between himself, Miller, and Anibal (and probably Volstad too). Plus he's had even less time in the majors than any of the aforementioned so I think he still has the most room to improve. I definately wouldnt mind him being our 4th or 5th starter.

[Sashimi]

I'm also a VandenHurk fan. I've always liked his stuff and his delivery. Command and consistency has been an issue with him to be sure, but I thought he would need more time to develop because he started pitching relatively late and because he's from a cold-weather country (and it seems to be conventional wisdom that even U.S. pitchers from cold-weather states typically need more time to develop professionally).

[BigGameFish]

I know its just spring but here are Vandy's number so far:

5 IP
0 ER
.80 WHIP
7.2 K/9
6.6 pitches/IP

5 IP is obviously a very small sample size but not relatively small when compared to our other starters, so we can at least discuss them. He is either at or near the top in all those categories.

But I think those numbers could be scewed if he's coming into games late. That I'm not sure of.

[THE_REAL_MIBS]

VandenHurk has yet to start a game yet. His first start in tomorrow against the Nats.

[Sashimi]

VandenHurk has yet to start a game yet. His first start in tomorrow against the Nats.

I was pretty sure that his first outing was a start.