Dallas Trahern Has Surgery

[Flum]

So we would've had Bonifacio and then had to find a SS. I would rather try to find a 1B or 3B than a SS, because good ones are more plentiful. Jorge Cantu and Nick Johnson ftw.

What does it matter what you would "rather try to find," if the only players we actually end up finding are below "replacement level?"

And Nick Johnson has started what? Half the games during which he's been a member of our team? I'd hardly call that a "win." If he remained healthy, then yes, it's a win. But he didn't and hasn't because he's a quintessential example of Marlins baseball: When you go bargain basement shopping, don't be surprised when you get what you pay for.

[Swifty]

Jorge Cantu and Nick Johnson for what win?

85 wins and a trip to the golf course?

[Party]

Don't worry we'll win 110 games in 3 years. Just like we planned in 2006 for 2009-10.

[Fish and Chips]

with the way the marlins spend money, there will always be 2 positions that will have below league average production.

its so much easilier to find a good 1b /3rd then a good ss

[lou]

Just like we were right on the brink with a rotation that would make us monsters in the division for a decade?

Excuse me if I'll not wax poetically about our future until I actually see an in-house Beinfest product come in and have a consistent 3 year gangbusters stretch.

And regarding the Hanley / Miggy debate.

Lou, plainly and simply, Hanley is spectacular, no doubt, but the fact that he is so far above and beyond better than the 6th best hitting shortstop means very little. Having Hanley and his stupid good production based on position means very little if we allow it to justify us trotting out a .780 OPS out of 1B or a .742 outfield corner OPS.

With all due respect, I understand it's intriguing to say how historically good Hanley is, and I won't dispute that, but in terms of putting together a team and a winning team, it's very hard to take a guy like Hanley and ask him to make up for bad production from at least one traditional slugging position and maybe as much as two. If Hanley is never going to be a 40 homer guy (and, again, with all due respect, I cannot fathom an argument that says 40 homers and a .970 + OPS is a certainty after he came to camp 25 pounds heavier, people beat off to the thought of 40, you said you'd peg him for 22 before the break, and here he is in September with 19 and owning only 1 multi-homer game all season) at what point do you end this "carry us up the middle" experiment? This isn't to say dump Hanley, or that we should look to move him, I'd love to see him play the rest of his career here, but Hanley's growing malingering nature, his evident 30 homer ceiling, and his near inexplicable decision to just stop running the last two years (102 SB's his first two years, 59 the last two) has to make you somewhat concerned that in terms of pure offense, not offense relative position, we're going to end up with a player who, over a 10 year span, will have inferior numbers.

We kind of have that rotation. We've developed an ACE. So you want JJ to show up again before calling him "gangbusters." Whatever. We have a guy when his head is on straight is a 2, worst case scenario a 3 in Nolasco. We have a 3/4 innings eater with Volstad. And we have two young and raw power lefties. What's changed here? We are some consistency away from having a devastating rotation. And we'll probably add another big arm with an Uggla move this offseason, and hopefully Winters/Sanabia/Vanden Hurk work out into a "5" for some depth. We got through the year with no major injuries, despite both of our concerns (I feel we are 1-2 when it comes to pitch count worries here) that Nolasco and other arms would fall off. I don't see how we can criticize this.

Secondly, Hanley Ramirez has a .997 OPS right now (34 higher than Cabrera), and the highest slugging percentage of his career (granted the AVG inflates that a little, but it counts). Sure, I was wrong when I truly believed he would hit 35+ this year. But he can do whatever he wants if he's hitting that hard. Because it's still a crapload of extra base hits. He's on pace for 50 2B/25 HR this year. Which is pretty nuts. He's going to hit .310/.400/.525 minimum, with 25-30 SB (and for the record, I nominally care about his SB production) for years. And I think it's unfair to cap him at 30 HR power. He could still become a 35-40 guy, and have a few peaks over 40. He's not in his prime yet. Age 27-31 is 2011-2015.

I am not concerned whatsoever, about his offense longterm. I also don't get your jab with this "up the middle" experiment. There is no experiment. We're going to be totally awesome longterm because we have a super premium SS, a likely premium CF, and a likely above average 2B longterm. These are hard positions to fill. We can pick up .775-.825 OPS guys around them for basically nothing, like Cantu and Nick Johnson, and that turns into one of the best offenses in baseball.

Jorge Cantu and Nick Johnson for what win?

85 wins and a trip to the golf course?

So you want to make fun of them because they aren't going to make the playoffs, but have still exceeded expectations? We still play to win. But if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. I'm over having headaches about "but if we had $15 million more to spend on payroll." We don't. The Front Office plays the hand dealt to them, and they do a pretty awesome job for the most part. Cantu and NJ are decently productive and cheap. No sense on making fun of them. Make fun of Bonifacio. THATS the problem.
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Offense relative to position is completely valid for the 29 other teams in the league who will spend the going rate for a league average player at a given position. But if you're the Marlins, whose answer to a hole at third base is Emilio Bonaficio, then whatever relative benefit you gain from having Hanley at short is completely squandered.

By extension, one could argue that Hanley would therefore have been far more valuable to other teams than he is to us. And perhaps we could have received a better package in return.

Sure, EBs suck basically rendered the SS/3B combination to an .800 OPS and "league average" (still above, but we'll just say its around average for arguments sake). But that has nothing to do with building a team longterm. The Marlins are going to figure out 3B. This isn't just about right now. They have the last month and a half with the Cantu shift over. Maybe they try Gaby. Maybe they try and trade for a young guy like Kouz or Ad. LaRoche. And then comes Dominguez. When this happens, what would you rather have. Hanley/Dominguez and a player to fill 1B, or Cabrera/Dominguez and a player to fill SS? I mean, this is common sense?????? Positional Scarcity is beyond huge. And it matters regardless of team payroll. And you can also find league average, or better, production on waivers (Cody), MILB free agent (Cantu), Rule 5 (Uggla), MILB trade (Baker), and deadline deal (Johnson). It's not just in free agency and spending the cheddar. Spending doesn't mean better. It's about talent acquisition.

Poll any real baseball guy, name 1 player they'd want to build a team around. I bet it's mostly Hanley, some Mauer, and a few Pujols (because of age).

[Swifty]

The same baseball guys most people here would say have no clue or should have been aborted (that was an all time great from the other board)?

I just think it's funny that their opinion is only as valuable as their corroboration with our own.

[lou]

The same baseball guys most people here would say have no clue or should have been aborted (that was an all time great from the other board)?

I just think it's funny that their opinion is only as valuable as their corroboration with our own.

Drafting, acquiring, and developing talent, gambling on trades, and signing free agents just for the hell of it when you have money and don't have to worry about the longterm because you're trying not to get fired is a lot different than identifying the top 2-3 players in the major leagues to build around.

[Swifty]

Lou, I'm simply saying that these are the same people that, even at the start of the season, would have you believe Hanley and Jose Reyes were relatively on the same plane. That 2 years ago, one was convincingly better than the other (obviously we know how "right" that was).

That right now, there's a great chance give Teixeira or Jeter the MVP award over Mauer...hell, that right now would tell you there's someone better to build around than Joe Mauer.

Sportswriting is a copy-cat league. One player starts a trend, sportswriter A picks up on that trend and 14 people run with the info-pinion until it is fact. That's how Colon wins a Cy Young, that's how Morneau wins an MVP, that's how you have so many "surprise" teams each season from small/midmarkets because the sports writing isn't anticipatory, it's reactionary.