2011 Offseason Sim 1

[THE_REAL_MIBS]

Are you guys not hearing me? I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT HAS COMPLAINED ABOUT NOT ENOUGH TALENT. Go back and look in this thread. Knuckleballs was 100% right. Te league grew stagnant because people didn't want to trade their decent players and risk ending up with flaming piles of shit. We also had basically the same teams in the playoffs every year and those who weren't and couldn't catch up just gave up and ignored their teams. That's a large part of the problem.

I'm not just saying this for me. You guys wanted input about the league. I'm trying to tell you what pissed me off and why I lost interest so you can take that into consideration.

[KnuckleBalls]

I used star rating as an example of player talent due to most owners evaluating talent by that rating. I know that the stars don't mean anything, but just used it as an easy way to explain the talent level I was talking about. Most players in fa don't have a stat line that averages over 55, which I feel is sassy too low.

[Branch]

Fuck you SFM.

[PitchingWinsGames]

Are you guys not hearing me? I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT HAS COMPLAINED ABOUT NOT ENOUGH TALENT. Go back and look in this thread. Knuckleballs was 100% right. Te league grew stagnant because people didn't want to trade their decent players and risk ending up with flaming piles of shit. We also had basically the same teams in the playoffs every year and those who weren't and couldn't catch up just gave up and ignored their teams. That's a large part of the problem.

I'm not just saying this for me. You guys wanted input about the league. I'm trying to tell you what pissed me off and why I lost interest so you can take that into consideration.

That's not the league's fault. It's no surprise that the leagues that DID make the playoffs were the ones that were aggressive in making trades and moves. And, I like that your argument is "See, Knuckleballs agrees with me", inasmuch as 2 people comprise some majority or something.

Nny and I (and others) tried every which way to say that holding onto your players and not trading was going to hurt your teams. In no way does it make sense to not provide large influxes of talent, and just like real life, sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. It's comical to assume or desire that a game about baseball have no implied risk for getting players.

Ive heard all the talk from everyone frustrated with their teams. Moss approached me about walking away once or twice and I told him to stick with it, gave him some ideas for his team and boom, success. Same for others. BOP, on the other hand, didn't follow very much of my advice but was still a persistent thorn in my team's side, providing a fun rival. But he still explored making moves and didn't rely on any one thing.

I understand the gist of your argument, a crutch for success was something you weren't good at and that wound up hurting your team, and as a result, your interest. That's unfortunate. But at the same time, if you go up to the plate in tee ball proclaiming you dont know how to swing a bat, you're probably not going to have very much fun either until you're properly coached.

And again, people not trading is not the league's fault... it's not the result of TOO LITTLE talent, quite the opposite, probably. People, more often than not, wanted to hold onto their talent rather than pull the trigger to make some moves because of the associated risk vs the corps of talent that was seemingly assembled. But heck, even the 2003 Marlins, mostly homegrown, still made the Pierre move, Pudge via FA, Ugueth, etc.

[THE_REAL_MIBS]

There's more than one way to develop a team in real life. It doesn't always require you to trade guys to build your team. Teams can also be built from the draft and free agency but not in this league. You have to trade to win. That's why the guys comfortable with trading ALWAYS won and those who didn't trade always lost. Maybe you should say ahead of time that this is a trader's paradise league so if you don't like trading, this is not for you. I wouldn't have joined and wasted so much of your time.

Regardless, you should realize that if there were quite a few of us losing interest, something is not working with the system. What started out as a 30-team league ended up as only a handful of guys that actually cared all the way through the season. That should have been a red flag.

[Mainge]

Are you guys not hearing me? I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT HAS COMPLAINED ABOUT NOT ENOUGH TALENT. Go back and look in this thread. Knuckleballs was 100% right. Te league grew stagnant because people didn't want to trade their decent players and risk ending up with flaming piles of shit. We also had basically the same teams in the playoffs every year and those who weren't and couldn't catch up just gave up and ignored their teams. That's a large part of the problem.

I'm not just saying this for me. You guys wanted input about the league. I'm trying to tell you what pissed me off and why I lost interest so you can take that into consideration.

Incorrect. I drafted a losing team and was able to rebuild effectively in two seasons, into one of top 2-3 teams by using every method available. Draft, trading, FA, etc.

You really need to use that trading avenue. I definitely made my share of bad trades, probably more so than good ones, but if you don't make use of your ability to trade, you're going to be stuck with no talent.
--------------------

There's more than one way to develop a team in real life. It doesn't always require you to trade guys to build your team. Teams can also be built from the draft and free agency but not in this league. You have to trade to win. That's why the guys comfortable with trading ALWAYS won and those who didn't trade always lost. Maybe you should say ahead of time that this is a trader's paradise league so if you don't like trading, this is not for you. I wouldn't have joined and wasted so much of your time.

Regardless, you should realize that if there were quite a few of us losing interest, something is not working with the system. What started out as a 30-team league ended up as only a handful of guys that actually cared all the way through the season. That should have been a red flag.

We had 30 teams?

[Branch]

Fuck you SFM.

Allow me to insert the post that should have gone here, before SFM ragequit on me. I will also add additional comments in lieu of the fresh replies.

There's more than one way to develop a team in real life. It doesn't always require you to trade guys to build your team. Teams can also be built from the draft and free agency but not in this league. You have to trade to win. That's why the guys comfortable with trading ALWAYS won and those who didn't trade always lost. Maybe you should say ahead of time that this is a trader's paradise league so if you don't like trading, this is not for you. I wouldn't have joined and wasted so much of your time.

Regardless, you should realize that if there were quite a few of us losing interest, something is not working with the system. What started out as a 30-team league ended up as only a handful of guys that actually cared all the way through the season. That should have been a red flag.

PWG already covered some of what that post would have said, but here are some things he didn't mention that need to be said.

There is not a lack of talent in the league. Johan Santana, who has been a 1* player for several seasons, posted a #2/#3 starter line for me in the 2010 season. He only has 1* "talent" but is obviously a much better player than that designation implies. There are players like this all over the league. Just because you didn't know where to look doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Additionally, you can't use "the lack of talent in the league" as an excuse for your struggles in building a successful team. I've seen successful teams built mostly through the draft, mostly through FAs, mostly through trades, and different combinations of those as well. I watched San Fran go from cellar dwellers to wildcard team in one season, thanks to mcost actively pursuing all avenues to improve his team. That's the real problem, you limited yourself from the start. By purposefully avoiding trades, you hamstrung yourself and limited the growth of your team - if you're not in position to build through the draft, then you need to find other ways to improve. An owner has to pursue all avenues for success to build a winning team (and know which one fits your situation at any given time), and if you're not willing to do that you won't have a good team. The only person you should be upset with is yourself.

Secondly, this league never had 30 teams. The most we've ever had was 22, and we started with 20. We did lose some owners, but others came in to fill their places. There was relatively good turnover in the playoffs - about as good as in real life I would say. I wouldn't expect you to notice these things, as your failed strategy caused you to lose interest, but as a continuously active manager, I saw that there were quite a few different playoff teams every year.

I would also say that interest was fine before the very long layoff when PWG and nny were unable to sim. Obviously, in hindsight, it would have been good if they had allowed someone else to step in sooner, but we had retained the interest of more than 75% of our original base (still 18 out of 20 original teams, or 22 at peak, remaining). I think you're just livid because you couldn't build your team through the draft when, in real life, teams that try to build through the draft end up just like yours. Look at the Rays for a long time, or the Marlins the past few years. The Rays' prospects all hit at the right time, which was a bit lucky, but for a long time before that they were terrible. The Marlins have hovered around mediocrity for several seasons now, slowly building a good core of young players. They could potentially be a playoff team in a couple seasons, but that depends on what the owner/GM do. And, your team never had the salary cap restrictions and other types of restrictions these teams have to deal with. You literally had more options to build with and decided not to on purpose, then got upset when you were returned a realistic result. Building a winning team through the draft takes a long time. Next time you're thinking about doing something the hard way... Check to make sure you have the patience first.

And, calm down maybe. No need to get cagey. It's just fake baseball.

[THE_REAL_MIBS]

Incorrect. I drafted a losing team and was able to rebuild effectively in two seasons, into one of top 2-3 teams by using every method available. Draft, trading, FA, etc.

You really need to use that trading avenue. I definitely made my share of bad trades, probably more so than good ones, but if you don't make use of your ability to trade, you're going to be stuck with no talent.

I know that. I just said that. But, IIRC, we had the same two teams in the World Series two years in a row. Shock that it was both the commissioners. It just felt like those of us not very good at trading were WAYYYY behind the eight ball from the beginning.

[Branch]

I was terrible at trading when I started. If I weren't lazy, I'd go back and dig up old trades just to show you how bad I got fleeced sometimes. I wish I could see the T&B archives, there'd be some good ones there. But instead of shying away from it (and trust me, it was scary), I just asked for advice as much as possible, and kept trying until I started to do better. This led me to flipping guys like Ian Kinsler and Felix Hernandez for prospects that developed into major players for me. This is after most of the prospects that I drafted busting on me and several of my original starters completely busting as well. It took several years, but I managed to make the playoffs, and was a Metsian collapse from making it back-to-back appearances. I, like Mainge, used a combination of the three options. You need to be balanced in your approach, or suck for a very long time to accrue high draft picks. Or be the Yankees/Red Sox/Phillies and just buy the best players, which we can't do with a cap.

[THE_REAL_MIBS]

Moss, name me one single team in here that built through the draft. Just one. You can't. With a handful of decent players a year, you're right. It's absolutely 100% impossible to build from the draft. It's not about being patient. I waited four fucking years and ended up with a worse team than I started with when my superstars both played like dogshit, my number one draft pick that I never wanted in the first place (Mesoraco) was hitting .167 when I finally did bring him up and almost every other player I ever got neg developed.

Excuse me for not wanting to get involved in trades because of the fact that I totally suck at trading, getting burned every single time I made a trade.

[Mainge]

I know that. I just said that. But, IIRC, we had the same two teams in the World Series two years in a row. Shock that it was both the commissioners. It just felt like those of us not very good at trading were WAYYYY behind the eight ball from the beginning.

But you were offered a lot of help and you refused. It still isn't too late either. I would have no problem assisting you with whatever you would like. Even if you think I'm not great (and I'm not), if you ask myself, PWG, Nny, Moss, etc simultaneously, our collective knowledge/experience can give you a pretty good idea of what's going on.

[THE_REAL_MIBS]

But you were offered a lot of help and you refused. It still isn't too late either. I would have no problem assisting you with whatever you would like. Even if you think I'm not great (and I'm not), if you ask myself, PWG, Nny, Moss, etc simultaneously, our collective knowledge/experience can give you a pretty good idea of what's going on.

I didn't refuse. PWG tried to help me but trading is just something I can't get a handle on. It's like trying to read chinese to me. It makes no sense and I can't seem to figure out a way to understand it. I have absolutely 0 idea how to figure out what is a good return for a player or how you evaluate trades.

[Branch]

I can name two right off the top of my head. Like I said before, you don't appear to have been paying attention. I was. Philly built largely through the draft. At one point he had 4/5 starters that had all been prospects who came up through his system, and they were AMAZING too. His offense was a similar story(except for being amazing). Eventually he did start making some trades, but his major players were still acquired through drafting. Cleveland also built through the draft. Look at his fucking team, his best players are his own draft picks. You are dense if you don't think any team built through the draft. You are also dense if you think that the way building through the draft works out now is inherently wrong. If it were made easier to build through the draft, everyone would have teams full of stacked players. It takes careful observation to select the best pick to make, and careful management to make sure he develops well. Just because you appear to suck at these things does not imply that there is a problem with the system. Others have used it, and succeeded.

Like I said before, but more gently, the mess you're in is your own damn fault. You deliberately limited yourself because you suck at trading. We ALL sucked at first. Nobody starts out magically good at something. You were unwilling to apply yourself and try to improve, and your team suffered as a result. You sound like a petulant child.

[Bobbob1313]

Your complaints aren't reasons to change the game. If you can't trade, that's not the game's fault.

[KnuckleBalls]

Cleveland was a last place team for all but the last season. I would hope at some point those draft picks would pan out.