Marlins 2017-2018 Offseason Discussion Thread

[dim]

Im assuming it would be because they think incredibly highly of Sierra and Alcantara.

- - - - - - - - - -

Between the trades we've already made and then still being able to deal Yelich, Straily, Bour, Bearclaw, and JT, we should have the best farm system in baseball by the end of the offseason.

The White Sox have two of the top ten prospects in all of baseball and four of the top forty prospects. Nobody is touching them.

For reference the Marlins still don't have a top 100 prospect according to MLB.com (I know BA and others have different rankings).

Unless they get a White Sox style haul for Yelich, whose value, like a lot of the other Marlins, just declined a bit because he has made it essentially known he wants out, they won't have a top 10 farm system in baseball let alone the best.

You are getting way too excited about the rebuild when the guys we've gotten in return for established, all-star players so far have been B-tier MLB prospects at best. It is abundantly clear that the salary dumping has taken precedent over the talent that has been coming back in return.

The team has also been making classic mistakes that led to them having a terrible farm system in the first place, with Alcantara being a high walk guy which suggests volatility and Sierra who has absolutely no power (I mean worst in baseball power) and hasn't shown any ability to get on base outside of singles.

The guys gotten in return are the exact same style prospects the team targeted under the old regime, and the same prospects that led to a league worst (or 2nd if you count the Angels) in baseball.

That said I do like Neidert and Gallen (who reminds me of Mike Leake as a fast minor league riser). I will refuse to acknowledge the Stanton trade given it is cemented as tied for the worst thing the franchise has ever done trade wise (Cabrera).

I'm not saying that a rebuild couldn't work. But many of the moves so far should rightfully be questioned. The clubhouse chemistry is a lost cause and it's December.

- - - - - - - - - -

I do believe Alcantara should count as a top 100 prospect based on potential (if all goes right he'll be electric), but the bust factor is pretty high. The bigger problem is it's hard to say what kind of prospect he is because he spent two years in rookie ball then got skyrocketed up the system all the way to the majors last season. And he never dominated at any particular level on his way up. There's a ton of questions there.

Merandy Gonzalez feels like a safer prospect to succeed (although a lower ceiling) despite his similar age and lower level.

[rmc523]

Im assuming it would be because they think incredibly highly of Sierra and Alcantara.

- - - - - - - - - -

Between the trades we've already made and then still being able to deal Yelich, Straily, Bour, Bearclaw, and JT, we should have the best farm system in baseball by the end of the offseason.

you're literally just completely making up the bold.

What are you talking about? The return on the three trades so far has been more and more underwhelming with each consecutive trade, so I've seen nothing to indicate that they'll get equal value (or what it should be - above value) for anybody they have left.

How Ozuna didn't receive any top top prospects is beyond me. Yeah I know, they went quantity over a top guy, blah blah. And they may work out, but right now, I'm just not too hopeful on the moves they've made or the precedence it sets for future moves.

[lou]

Yelich and Realmuto's value hasn't changed at all. One is under control for 5 years cheap, the other is super cheap with 3 years of control. Stanton's contract ballooned and Ozuna has a large arbitration tender and said he will not sign a buyout. These are very different circumstances and the Marlins have no incentive to move them regardless if they are unhappy. They would make a killing for either.

I agree the moves on a baseball level should be rightfully questioned as they are putting all of their eggs in the Alcantara/Sierra/Guzman/Neidert basket, but at the same time I think a lot of people here need to chill out. Fish16 is probably too enthusiastic about what they got, which is fine to be optimistic, but at the same time there is too much doom and gloom from the other side. The likely result is something in the middle.

This theme of them making "classic mistakes" also led to them directly acquiring everyone being complained about - Yelich, Realmuto, and Stanton were drafted by the Hill/Loria/Beinfest regime (and Fernandez), Ozuna was an international free agent they developed for a decade, Bour was plucked from nowhere, they basically 'won' the recent Cishek (Barraclough) and Gordon trades, etc. Sure, they have made countless mistakes (Maybin/Miller, Chen, H. Bell, Latos-Descalfani, probably Straily-Castillo, the Cosart debacle, etc.), but we can't just ignore that they have evaluated and acquired talent at the same time. To respond specifically to, but how can we trust them when these guys drafted the 2nd worst farm system in baseball, I completely hear you, but they also have had 2 of their last 3 1st round picks blow out their arms and we will never know what purse strings Loria had on them at getting guys under slot/not signing international free agents. I think it is completely valid to criticize them despite Stanton/Fernandez/Yelich/Realmuto as they probably still have a below average track record in drafting, but just saying, I think everyone needs to pump the breaks just a little bit here. It's not as cheery as the FO/Fish16 want to make it, but it's also not going to be as bad as everyone sucking and becoming relievers and Reggie Abercrombies.

Hypothetically, if they dump Yelich to move contracts, I mean have at it and their goals are clear at that point, but I don't think something like that is going to happen. We just have to wait and see what happens. Prospects are volatile no matter what their BA ranking are. Miller, Maybin, Hermida, and Volstad.

Regardless, if we're looking at this objectively, I don't think a core of this is bad in 2020. Maybe it could/should be better with a bigger Stanton/Ozuna return (as adding someone like Sheffield/Flaherty to each of those deals would really cement having another young safer SP option in the pipelines which would be great....), but

C- Realmuto
1B - ?
2B - ?
SS - ?
3B - Anderson - scouting reports say a second division starter/FV45, so let's say he's a 1.5+ WAR guy which would be fine through his first or second arb year
LF - Yelich
CF - Sierra - scouting reports say a FV50, so maybe he is the next in the Pierra/Gordon/Dyson/Hamilton lineage and is a 2.5+ WAR speedster. Floor seems safe with defense, just like Billy Hamilton (who has averaged 2.5 WAR the last 4 seasons)
RF - ?
Bench - ?

SP 1 - ?
SP 2/3 - Alcantara/Guzman/Garret/Rogers - let's assume a 75% flame out, but one of them hits their 2/3 SP projection
SP 3/4 - Neidert/whoever they eventually get for Straily/Castro/Bour/2018 1st or 2nd round pick - assuming a 75% flame out also, please give me the liberty of adding 3 guys here from the trades that haven't happened yet and them taking a college SP with a top 50 pick in the 2018 draft
SP 4/5 - Peters/M. Gonzalez/Gallen/C. Smith/whoever/etc. - assuming a 75%+ flame out rate, but I think it's safe to assume one of these lower end guys works out next few years as a durable whatever SP
SP 5 - ?
Pen - Stecknrider, Wittgren, Garcia, and the slew of SP flameouts/bullpen guys (Poteet, Brigham, Richards, etc.) in the minors - I suspect the bullpen isn't going to be an issue at all and they will have one in house with what they have now

Let's say that works out - 4 position players, 3 longterm SP (but no ace), and the entire bullpen. That's going to be around $30 million dollars for 14-15 players in 2020 and it won't rise dramatically for another few years. Chen bumps that number up to $52 million in 2020 and then is off the books completely. You would expect they will have a few more club controlled options on the team as surely they can identify another starting position somewhere and bench players the next 2 years, so they are probably looking at a $60 million payroll and can afford something like 2 longterm core FA ($30-35 total), 2 short term FA ($10-15), and 2-3 cheaper veterans ($5-10) to fill out the team for a $100-120 million roster. That's a lot of money to spend. That range of payroll is 19-24th overall in 2017 dollars, so I think that is reasonable to project. 15th would be $140 million as a side note. We can dream.

I'm just saying, that doesn't look bad even if we all would have liked a bit more for Stanton/Ozuna. If they hit on more than 25% of the SP prospects they have/are going to get shortly with the undoubtedly next round of trades and early 2018 draft pick, they are going to be in pretty good shape.

I acknowledge this is all assuming they will open up payroll in 2 years once they clear the decks 18/19, get naming rights, new TV deal, etc., but I just can't see them not doing that.

Anyways.

[tjfla]

Writeup from MLB.com

7 out of the 10 are Marlins

https://www.mlb.com/news/top-10-pros...?tid=151437456

[fish16]

Yelich and Realmuto's value hasn't changed at all. One is under control for 5 years cheap, the other is super cheap with 3 years of control. Stanton's contract ballooned and Ozuna has a large arbitration tender and said he will not sign a buyout. These are very different circumstances and the Marlins have no incentive to move them regardless if they are unhappy. They would make a killing for either.

I agree the moves on a baseball level should be rightfully questioned as they are putting all of their eggs in the Alcantara/Sierra/Guzman/Neidert basket, but at the same time I think a lot of people here need to chill out. Fish16 is probably too enthusiastic about what they got, which is fine to be optimistic, but at the same time there is too much doom and gloom from the other side. The likely result is something in the middle.

This theme of them making "classic mistakes" also led to them directly acquiring everyone being complained about - Yelich, Realmuto, and Stanton were drafted by the Hill/Loria/Beinfest regime (and Fernandez), Ozuna was an international free agent they developed for a decade, Bour was plucked from nowhere, they basically 'won' the recent Cishek (Barraclough) and Gordon trades, etc. Sure, they have made countless mistakes (Maybin/Miller, Chen, H. Bell, Latos-Descalfani, probably Straily-Castillo, the Cosart debacle, etc.), but we can't just ignore that they have evaluated and acquired talent at the same time. To respond specifically to, but how can we trust them when these guys drafted the 2nd worst farm system in baseball, I completely hear you, but they also have had 2 of their last 3 1st round picks blow out their arms and we will never know what purse strings Loria had on them at getting guys under slot/not signing international free agents. I think it is completely valid to criticize them despite Stanton/Fernandez/Yelich/Realmuto as they probably still have a below average track record in drafting, but just saying, I think everyone needs to pump the breaks just a little bit here. It's not as cheery as the FO/Fish16 want to make it, but it's also not going to be as bad as everyone sucking and becoming relievers and Reggie Abercrombies.

Hypothetically, if they dump Yelich to move contracts, I mean have at it and their goals are clear at that point, but I don't think something like that is going to happen. We just have to wait and see what happens. Prospects are volatile no matter what their BA ranking are. Miller, Maybin, Hermida, and Volstad.

Regardless, if we're looking at this objectively, I don't think a core of this is bad in 2020. Maybe it could/should be better with a bigger Stanton/Ozuna return (as adding someone like Sheffield/Flaherty to each of those deals would really cement having another young safer SP option in the pipelines which would be great....), but

C- Realmuto
1B - ?
2B - ?
SS - ?
3B - Anderson - scouting reports say a second division starter/FV45, so let's say he's a 1.5+ WAR guy which would be fine through his first or second arb year
LF - Yelich
CF - Sierra - scouting reports say a FV50, so maybe he is the next in the Pierra/Gordon/Dyson/Hamilton lineage and is a 2.5+ WAR speedster. Floor seems safe with defense, just like Billy Hamilton (who has averaged 2.5 WAR the last 4 seasons)
RF - ?
Bench - ?

SP 1 - ?
SP 2/3 - Alcantara/Guzman/Garret/Rogers - let's assume a 75% flame out, but one of them hits their 2/3 SP projection
SP 3/4 - Neidert/whoever they eventually get for Straily/Castro/Bour/2018 1st or 2nd round pick - assuming a 75% flame out also, please give me the liberty of adding 3 guys here from the trades that haven't happened yet and them taking a college SP with a top 50 pick in the 2018 draft
SP 4/5 - Peters/M. Gonzalez/Gallen/C. Smith/whoever/etc. - assuming a 75%+ flame out rate, but I think it's safe to assume one of these lower end guys works out next few years as a durable whatever SP
SP 5 - ?
Pen - Stecknrider, Wittgren, Garcia, and the slew of SP flameouts/bullpen guys (Poteet, Brigham, Richards, etc.) in the minors - I suspect the bullpen isn't going to be an issue at all and they will have one in house with what they have now

Let's say that works out - 4 position players, 3 longterm SP (but no ace), and the entire bullpen. That's going to be around $30 million dollars for 14-15 players in 2020 and it won't rise dramatically for another few years. Chen bumps that number up to $52 million in 2020 and then is off the books completely. You would expect they will have a few more club controlled options on the team as surely they can identify another starting position somewhere and bench players the next 2 years, so they are probably looking at a $60 million payroll and can afford something like 2 longterm core FA ($30-35 total), 2 short term FA ($10-15), and 2-3 cheaper veterans ($5-10) to fill out the team for a $100-120 million roster. That's a lot of money to spend. That range of payroll is 19-24th overall in 2017 dollars, so I think that is reasonable to project. 15th would be $140 million as a side note. We can dream.

I'm just saying, that doesn't look bad even if we all would have liked a bit more for Stanton/Ozuna. If they hit on more than 25% of the SP prospects they have/are going to get shortly with the undoubtedly next round of trades and early 2018 draft pick, they are going to be in pretty good shape.

I acknowledge this is all assuming they will open up payroll in 2 years once they clear the decks 18/19, get naming rights, new TV deal, etc., but I just can't see them not doing that.

Anyways.

Agreed with the bold. im obviously way too optimistic about the future given that we are about to be god awful for a few years, im just so sick of the constant doom and gloom for an ownership group that has only been here for a few months. Granted, there have been several PR mistakes, but the overall direction of the team is much closer to being a consistent winner than we were before we made these moves. So much of sports nowadays is in payroll structure and team building, and the fact that this ownership group is showing a commitment to figuring that out is incredibly important to me. Im also just so incredibly sick of this fake outrage from so much of this fanbase, as if they were so attached to the core that never was above .500 and also was last in the league in attendance.

[sports24/7]

Yelich and Realmuto's value hasn't changed at all. One is under control for 5 years cheap, the other is super cheap with 3 years of control. Stanton's contract ballooned and Ozuna has a large arbitration tender and said he will not sign a buyout. These are very different circumstances and the Marlins have no incentive to move them regardless if they are unhappy. They would make a killing for either.

I agree the moves on a baseball level should be rightfully questioned as they are putting all of their eggs in the Alcantara/Sierra/Guzman/Neidert basket, but at the same time I think a lot of people here need to chill out. Fish16 is probably too enthusiastic about what they got, which is fine to be optimistic, but at the same time there is too much doom and gloom from the other side. The likely result is something in the middle.

This theme of them making "classic mistakes" also led to them directly acquiring everyone being complained about - Yelich, Realmuto, and Stanton were drafted by the Hill/Loria/Beinfest regime (and Fernandez), Ozuna was an international free agent they developed for a decade, Bour was plucked from nowhere, they basically 'won' the recent Cishek (Barraclough) and Gordon trades, etc. Sure, they have made countless mistakes (Maybin/Miller, Chen, H. Bell, Latos-Descalfani, probably Straily-Castillo, the Cosart debacle, etc.), but we can't just ignore that they have evaluated and acquired talent at the same time. To respond specifically to, but how can we trust them when these guys drafted the 2nd worst farm system in baseball, I completely hear you, but they also have had 2 of their last 3 1st round picks blow out their arms and we will never know what purse strings Loria had on them at getting guys under slot/not signing international free agents. I think it is completely valid to criticize them despite Stanton/Fernandez/Yelich/Realmuto as they probably still have a below average track record in drafting, but just saying, I think everyone needs to pump the breaks just a little bit here. It's not as cheery as the FO/Fish16 want to make it, but it's also not going to be as bad as everyone sucking and becoming relievers and Reggie Abercrombies.

Hypothetically, if they dump Yelich to move contracts, I mean have at it and their goals are clear at that point, but I don't think something like that is going to happen. We just have to wait and see what happens. Prospects are volatile no matter what their BA ranking are. Miller, Maybin, Hermida, and Volstad.

Regardless, if we're looking at this objectively, I don't think a core of this is bad in 2020. Maybe it could/should be better with a bigger Stanton/Ozuna return (as adding someone like Sheffield/Flaherty to each of those deals would really cement having another young safer SP option in the pipelines which would be great....), but

C- Realmuto
1B - ?
2B - ?
SS - ?
3B - Anderson - scouting reports say a second division starter/FV45, so let's say he's a 1.5+ WAR guy which would be fine through his first or second arb year
LF - Yelich
CF - Sierra - scouting reports say a FV50, so maybe he is the next in the Pierra/Gordon/Dyson/Hamilton lineage and is a 2.5+ WAR speedster. Floor seems safe with defense, just like Billy Hamilton (who has averaged 2.5 WAR the last 4 seasons)
RF - ?
Bench - ?

SP 1 - ?
SP 2/3 - Alcantara/Guzman/Garret/Rogers - let's assume a 75% flame out, but one of them hits their 2/3 SP projection
SP 3/4 - Neidert/whoever they eventually get for Straily/Castro/Bour/2018 1st or 2nd round pick - assuming a 75% flame out also, please give me the liberty of adding 3 guys here from the trades that haven't happened yet and them taking a college SP with a top 50 pick in the 2018 draft
SP 4/5 - Peters/M. Gonzalez/Gallen/C. Smith/whoever/etc. - assuming a 75%+ flame out rate, but I think it's safe to assume one of these lower end guys works out next few years as a durable whatever SP
SP 5 - ?
Pen - Stecknrider, Wittgren, Garcia, and the slew of SP flameouts/bullpen guys (Poteet, Brigham, Richards, etc.) in the minors - I suspect the bullpen isn't going to be an issue at all and they will have one in house with what they have now

Let's say that works out - 4 position players, 3 longterm SP (but no ace), and the entire bullpen. That's going to be around $30 million dollars for 14-15 players in 2020 and it won't rise dramatically for another few years. Chen bumps that number up to $52 million in 2020 and then is off the books completely. You would expect they will have a few more club controlled options on the team as surely they can identify another starting position somewhere and bench players the next 2 years, so they are probably looking at a $60 million payroll and can afford something like 2 longterm core FA ($30-35 total), 2 short term FA ($10-15), and 2-3 cheaper veterans ($5-10) to fill out the team for a $100-120 million roster. That's a lot of money to spend. That range of payroll is 19-24th overall in 2017 dollars, so I think that is reasonable to project. 15th would be $140 million as a side note. We can dream.

I'm just saying, that doesn't look bad even if we all would have liked a bit more for Stanton/Ozuna. If they hit on more than 25% of the SP prospects they have/are going to get shortly with the undoubtedly next round of trades and early 2018 draft pick, they are going to be in pretty good shape.

I acknowledge this is all assuming they will open up payroll in 2 years once they clear the decks 18/19, get naming rights, new TV deal, etc., but I just can't see them not doing that.

Anyways.

The problem with that is you're lacking high level talent. You're best pitcher is a 2/3, and while you have some solid hitters, you don't have anyone that will really scare anyone. And the Marlins will probably never be real players for high level free agents. To me, that's why the returns have been so disappointing, and why if they do move Yelich, I hope the return is a high level prospect or two, rather than multiple lower level guys.

[Swifty]

I'm already hanging that 2021 banner next to the 2010 and 2015 banners, boys.

- - - - - - - - - -

In all seriousness, though, the ultimate issue that will never be adequately explained to me is, even if the rebuild around Yelich and Realmuto hits a home run, it'll struggle to put together a lineup as talented as the one it just tore down. If you have a lot of the "rebuild" working (remember, this is the rebuild from 2012 that was coming together) and still won't spend, does the rebuild ever end? That's the problem, a perpetual rebuild when you have to win with everyone in their club controlled years is just not feasible in this economic landscape.

- - - - - - - - - -

...and on top of that, it's just not feasible with this group of decision makers. The core of the FO is the same one that valued Nicolino over Syndergaard. It's the same one that didn't value Andrew Heaney and overvalued Dan Straily at the deadline. The list goes on and on. For as much as I liked to pile on Beinfest, at least his drafts were the cornerstone of this group (Stanton, Yelich, Realmuto, Jose). Hill's have been a disaster.

[lou]

The problem with that is you're lacking high level talent. You're best pitcher is a 2/3, and while you have some solid hitters, you don't have anyone that will really scare anyone. And the Marlins will probably never be real players for high level free agents. To me, that's why the returns have been so disappointing, and why if they do move Yelich, I hope the return is a high level prospect or two, rather than multiple lower level guys.

Absolutely. You have Yelich, probably can say Realmuto if he continues playing as a top 5 catcher, and hopes and dreams of Alcantara/Guzman/Garret/Rogers turning into a # 2. They have to get lucky with at least one of the SP turning into a total beast, get across the board above average contributions from everyone else, get really lucky in the 18/19 drafts to get the next Yelich/Stanton/Ozuna/Fernandez who is fast moving, and really nail 1-2 big time free agent signings. I agree that's the rung below a Machado/Harper type talent. That's probably a 2021 breakout year if it cuts right. Small margin of error, but that's what happens when an owner runs the team into the ground for a few years, 2/3 of your last draft picks blow out their arms immediately, your best player has a tragic death, etc.

I'm not saying I am thrilled, I'm just saying some have said the Marlins will compete for the worst record ever into 40 wins and this is going to take 5+ years and those kind of statements are just as silly as expecting the Marlins to have acquired two 2s (Alcantara, Guzman), a 3 (Neidert), a 4 (Gallen), a 3.5+ WAR speed CF (Sierra), and future SS star 4+ years away (Devers). Neither perspective is true. It's going to fall into the middle. They may be lacking a top end besides Yelich, but they might have the entire bottom end figured out and a few free agents with a low payroll in 3-4 years can fix that quickly.

Hopefully for our sake we all think of these moves as not so bad in a few years. It can't possibly be worse than Maybin, Miller, Cosart, Turner, Nicolino, etc.

[tjfla]

They should be able to get another #2/#3 type pitcher at #13 in this years draft who will likely be around 2020/21. Next year(2019) draft should be very interesting. They will have a Top 5 Pick and 2 more within the Top 45(3 in Top 45).

Another thing that could help is try to sign one of these Top IFA guys instead of 20 OK guys. U sign a Top 16 yr old and 2/3 years(20) they could be in the Majors

I understand and agree what everyone says but the fact is this system was and kinda still is crap. U need to start from the bottom and work your way up

- - - - - - - - - -

Still a very good chance Yelich gets dealt. They are "meeting" with him again to try to get him to stay however it's not looking good. He wants out and the kinda offers they have gotten for him makes the FO very interested. Still same stuff-they want arms or bats who will be ready by 2020 and if u will take Prado u move to the top of the list

JT on the other hand is very likely to go anywhere. They have told teams until u see them get a young C they won't be discussing him with anyone

[Erick]

I'm already hanging that 2021 banner next to the 2010 and 2015 banners, boys.

- - - - - - - - - -

In all seriousness, though, the ultimate issue that will never be adequately explained to me is, even if the rebuild around Yelich and Realmuto hits a home run, it'll struggle to put together a lineup as talented as the one it just tore down. If you have a lot of the "rebuild" working (remember, this is the rebuild from 2012 that was coming together) and still won't spend, does the rebuild ever end? That's the problem, a perpetual rebuild when you have to win with everyone in their club controlled years is just not feasible in this economic landscape.

- - - - - - - - - -

...and on top of that, it's just not feasible with this group of decision makers. The core of the FO is the same one that valued Nicolino over Syndergaard. It's the same one that didn't value Andrew Heaney and overvalued Dan Straily at the deadline. The list goes on and on. For as much as I liked to pile on Beinfest, at least his drafts were the cornerstone of this group (Stanton, Yelich, Realmuto, Jose). Hill's have been a disaster.

1. The lineup of the next rebuild probably won't be as good, but hopefully the idea is that the pitching will be a lot better. Better to pay for bats in FA than pay for pitching (less risky at least).

2. Spending wasn't really the problem. They did spend. They just spent incredibly poorly. Loria's ownership group would've been better off not spending a cent in free agency.

3. Hill stayed, but just about everything/everyone else is different. Gary Denbo, for example, wasn't here before.

Just playing devil's advocate here. Like Lou has said, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

[tjfla]

Absolutely. You have Yelich, probably can say Realmuto if he continues playing as a top 5 catcher, and hopes and dreams of Alcantara/Guzman/Garret/Rogers turning into a # 2. They have to get lucky with at least one of the SP turning into a total beast, get across the board above average contributions from everyone else, get really lucky in the 18/19 drafts to get the next Yelich/Stanton/Ozuna/Fernandez who is fast moving, and really nail 1-2 big time free agent signings. I agree that's the rung below a Machado/Harper type talent. That's probably a 2021 breakout year if it cuts right. Small margin of error, but that's what happens when an owner runs the team into the ground for a few years, 2/3 of your last draft picks blow out their arms immediately, your best player has a tragic death, etc.

I'm not saying I am thrilled, I'm just saying some have said the Marlins will compete for the worst record ever into 40 wins and this is going to take 5+ years and those kind of statements are just as silly as expecting the Marlins to have acquired two 2s (Alcantara, Guzman), a 3 (Neidert), a 4 (Gallen), a 3.5+ WAR speed CF (Sierra), and future SS star 4+ years away (Devers). Neither perspective is true. It's going to fall into the middle. They may be lacking a top end besides Yelich, but they might have the entire bottom end figured out and a few free agents with a low payroll in 3-4 years can fix that quickly.

Hopefully for our sake we all think of these moves as not so bad in a few years. It can't possibly be worse than Maybin, Miller, Cosart, Turner, Nicolino, etc.

I know one thing we should be good with RP for the next 10 years. They suck at drafting and signing IFA but they sure can find RP

- - - - - - - - - -

1. The lineup of the next rebuild probably won't be as good, but hopefully the idea is that the pitching will be a lot better. Better to pay for bats in FA than pay for pitching (less risky at least).

2. Spending wasn't really the problem. They did spend. They just spent incredibly poorly. Loria's ownership group would've been better off not spending a cent in free agency.

3. Hill stayed, but just about everything/everyone else is different. Gary Denbo, for example, wasn't here before.

Just playing devil's advocate here. Like Lou has said, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Gary Denbo is gonna make a big difference. Right now he is working on the Minors but he has taken full control of it. He will be running the draft,picking out assignments for guys and scouting. He is also very big in the IFA market(tons of connections)

[fish16]

I know one thing we should be good with RP for the next 10 years. They suck at drafting and signing IFA but they sure can find RP

- - - - - - - - - -



Gary Denbo is gonna make a big difference. Right now he is working on the Minors but he has taken full control of it. He will be running the draft,picking out assignments for guys and scouting. He is also very big in the IFA market(tons of connections)

The bottom part is why I’m optimistic. I also don’t think Hill is doing much in the way of significant front office powers. To me I think he’s here through next year to show Denvo the ropes and then he’ll be gone. Denbo’s IFA connections and scouting and drafting prowess make me optimistic

[dim]

Remember when Jim Benedict was the savior?

[fish16]

Remember when Jim Benedict was the savior?

I was never cool with that guy. Also continually think its stupid to trade legit prospects for guys like that like we did with Trevor Williams.

[Ralph]

This draft should be the best most advanced college hitter. They have only been targeting pitching they need a cornerstone bat. A Seth Beer. I don’t care that he doesn’t have positional flexibility the bat is for real.