Miami Marlins 2016 Offseason Discussion Thread

[rmc523]

My reaction to the closer thing was because of the team's continual showing of a lack of knowledge of market inefficiencies. I would love to have a dominant closer. Jansen or Chapman or Miller is a great fit on any team. Giving up a first round pick for a guy who will pitch 70-80 innings a year, however, to me is a generally horrible investment no matter how good they are. But especially for a team in our financial situation and our current crop of prospects. This teams continued, for lack of a better phrase, inability to get "it", in regards to market inefficiencies is the one thing that I think drives me the most insane. A team with financial constraints should be looking at platoon guys as much as possible and relievers should be one of the last priorities, yet it seems to me that the opposite is the case with us, and that is bothersome.

I said this back when we were considering Chapman, but i would be super OK with even a completely out of the box idea like turning Miller or Chapman into starters like they used to be and seeing if we can fill the hole left by Jose in that way. Even if that fails, which i honestly dont think it would and has the chance to be a great value deal if they get signed to a closers contract, I would be OK with seeing them realizing the relative value of closers in relation to starting pitchers. But that is off topic and a discussion for another day.

I was willing to sign Napoli because he wouldnt require a pick, is a great platoon guy for Bour, and is exactly the type of power run producing bat this team needs. Those 2 can be mutually exclusive. It wasnt about the money for the closer, it was about the pick.

There is a plan in the sense of every team wants to win the world series. There is no plan as to how they want to accomplish that plan. Or at the very least that plan changes with the way the wind blows on Loria.

I get you dont like my negativeness and i get that this will not change under Loria, but you also must get that I will not simply accept his consistent cheapness among 10's of other issues that make him the worst owner in sports and not comment every time his horrific ownership style rears its ugly head.

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Obviously it's moot at this point, but the thing is, advocating for a pick over spending a ton of money on a closer would make sense in any other organization, but this one has proved that they can't draft either (lately anyway, obviously we have guys like Ozuna, Stanton, Yelich, Jose, etc,) or the top guys either haven't worked out or were shipped out in terrible trades. So you were advocating for something that would've been wasted anyway, as you correctly point out that it's blatantly obvious that the organization has no plan for the future, especially now with Loria selling.

[fish16]

Obviously it's moot at this point, but the thing is, advocating for a pick over spending a ton of money on a closer would make sense in any other organization, but this one has proved that they can't draft either (lately anyway, obviously we have guys like Ozuna, Stanton, Yelich, Jose, etc,) or the top guys either haven't worked out or were shipped out in terrible trades. So you were advocating for something that would've been wasted anyway, as you correctly point out that it's blatantly obvious that the organization has no plan for the future, especially now with Loria selling.

Having drafted bad previously is a horrific excuse for getting rid of future first round draft picks for the easiest to find position on a small market team. I understand your argument, but 2 wrongs dont make a right (in this case, fucking up draft picks doesnt mean the move is to abandon future first round picks for the easiest position to fill in baseball). And you cant just say aside from Stanton, Yelich, Realmuto, Jose, Heaney, and lower round guys. Those guys are all quality major leaguers that we got early in the draft/

[rmc523]

Having drafted bad previously is a horrific excuse for getting rid of future first round draft picks for the easiest to find position on a small market team. I understand your argument, but 2 wrongs dont make a right (in this case, fucking up draft picks doesnt mean the move is to abandon future first round picks for the easiest position to fill in baseball). And you cant just say aside from Stanton, Yelich, Realmuto, Jose, Heaney, and lower round guys. Those guys are all quality major leaguers that we got early in the draft/

I agree we need top picks given how bad our minor league system is. But it's clear that's not changing until Loria is gone. As it stands, as far as the FO and ownership are concerned, there is no future beyond the next year or two.

It doesn't really matter anymore, as it's a moot point now.

[tjfla]

Having drafted bad previously is a horrific excuse for getting rid of future first round draft picks for the easiest to find position on a small market team. I understand your argument, but 2 wrongs dont make a right (in this case, fucking up draft picks doesnt mean the move is to abandon future first round picks for the easiest position to fill in baseball). And you cant just say aside from Stanton, Yelich, Realmuto, Jose, Heaney, and lower round guys. Those guys are all quality major leaguers that we got early in the draft/

It's not that we draft bad,its that we draft based on $ still. All the other teams take BPA unless they have multiple early picks in which case u draft an injured player,PR player or college guy to save some cash. Every team has figured out the "new" draft which is u take the BPA regardless of price then offer them a close to slot deal using the pick value.

Our issue(not last year)is we still draft based on cash. Perfect example is Josh Stabbor-Top 40 talent NOT Top 15 talent but he gave us a deal and we got to save some cash. We really didn't need to save any but we did anyways. MLB gives u the exact amount u should offer a guy and good teams use this to their advantage

If u want to see how the new system helps a team-just look at Houston or Atlanta LY. They drafted the BPA on their boards without caring about the money and got like 5 guys who were Top 50 prospects

[rmc523]

So we dodged the Chris Johnson bullet.....he resigned with the Orioles on a minor league deal.

[tjfla]

Talking about draft picks

Trevor Williams is still in the running for 5th spot in Pirates rotation. Would have been a nice option for us.

Yep the guy we traded for a coach!! Like been saying just lazy FO work by us-a team wants something and we just say yes instead of doing homework. DFA is same crap-instead of talking to a team we just let the guy leave

[fish16]

Talking about draft picks

Trevor Williams is still in the running for 5th spot in Pirates rotation. Would have been a nice option for us.

Yep the guy we traded for a coach!! Like been saying just lazy FO work by us-a team wants something and we just say yes instead of doing homework. DFA is same crap-instead of talking to a team we just let the guy leave

Not only that, but has there been any noticeable change with the guy we got whose name is escaping me right now? Just look at all of the names we have given up in recent years: Heaney, Desclafani, Williams, Dayton, Dyson, Martes, Luis Castillo, Paddock(although he had TJ), Capps, Mader, Hatcher, Dan Jennings.

And who is still around from those trades? Dee Gordon, Telis, Straily, Cervenka?

[emkayseven]

Benedict's job wasn't ever, nor was it supposed to be, working with those guys (many of whom were traded before we even hired him)

Trevor Williams had a nice outing today

[rmc523]

So the Tigers released Mike Pelfrey. Seems like it'd be a Marlins thing to do to sign him, since we inexplicably had interest in him last offseason (or was it the one before that?).

[tjfla]

Not only that, but has there been any noticeable change with the guy we got whose name is escaping me right now? Just look at all of the names we have given up in recent years: Heaney, Desclafani, Williams, Dayton, Dyson, Martes, Luis Castillo, Paddock(although he had TJ), Capps, Mader, Hatcher, Dan Jennings.

And who is still around from those trades? Dee Gordon, Telis, Straily, Cervenka?

Ya he didnt work with most of them.

My point was they did Pitt a good faith solid for "signing" 2 guys in the FO and instead of negotiating the FO is so damn lazy Pitt prolly said give us Trevor Williams and its cool. When we traded for Ozzie we gave up Marinez and Ozzie Martinez. 2 guys who have done nothing but werent bad players when dealt. When we got Cosart we "threw" in Martes who if we still had would be in our rotation too. U think that if we had said NO that Houston would have nixed the deal? HELL NO

Just a lazy FO-Jeff/Mike Hill who instead of saying NO and negotiating,dont have the time and just say YES when they get the guy they want

This is 1 reason that when we do trades,it looks like we always get bent over a couch. Teams know we will overpay

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Too add on most GM's know that Jeff is gone in 2 years and is desperate to win. IF we do make trades this year,don't be surprised if we overpay even more than usual. Everyone is aware that if u can't help the Marlins win by 2019 u could be had. Players/Picks/IFA Cash all in play

[Nick]

Well on the brightside our minor league system is so bad it'll be hard to overpay.

[tjfla]

Well on the brightside our minor league system is so bad it'll be hard to overpay.

The issue with our system is instead of baseball players(When I say baseball players I mean guys who are actually baseball players. Hit .330,can recognize pitches,have command,know the game) we have guys who play baseball(Athletes who are projects,do 1 thing well,know how to play but couldn't tell u how many teams are in MLB)

We have started to change that the past 2 years but our FO/Stan Meek will always have that fascination with a guy who throws 100+ but doesn't throw anything else OR the guy who is 6'2 and built like a god but has no clue how to hit a slider

Meek's drafts are predictable AF- He likes power arms especially from MO,OK,TX/3 sport OF who can run but can't hit/2 defensive Catchers/1 position player from University of Kentucky/Lefty Arms/23 yr olds who will sign cheap with 4 or 5 surviving till the next year

A Stan Meek wet dream would be a 6'5 Lefty HS from MO/OK who threw 98-100 and might be a close one in this draft. Cody Ross's cousin(yep that Cody Ross) is Trevor Rogers. 6'6 Lefty throws 95 from NM!!!

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Another Marlins gem!!!! Blake Treinen was named Nats Closer. U might remember Blake from our few years of voided contracts due to physicals. Yep instead of signing guys and letting them rehab we had 2 or 3 years where we voided contracts

The 6'4'' right-hander was drafted in the 23rd round by the Marlins out of South Dakota State last June and flew to South Florida in anticipation of signing a professional contract. After being out of baseball for nearly three years, Treinen was just happy to have a chance to turn pro after one season of college baseball and had agreed to Florida's terms. But that's where his future plans took a huge detour. During a routine pre-signing MRI, the Marlins found enough inflammation in Treinen's rotator cuff to void his contract. The dejected Treinen was sent home, and he even had to repay his travel expenses to the Marlins in order to regain his college eligibility.

Lucky for us Jeff finally figured out that controlling the rights of an injured guy was better than not. Dillon Peters/Reilly Hovis are 2 of the guys we have gotten since he figured it out

[fish16]

I wasnt saying that Benedict had worked with those guys. I was making 2 separate points but looking at that post i see how that got confused. I was saying we have given up a stupid amount of good players/prospects in recent years and listed them, while also making the point that I dont see any noticable difference in the guys who are here since Benedict has come over.

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The issue with our system is instead of baseball players(When I say baseball players I mean guys who are actually baseball players. Hit .330,can recognize pitches,have command,know the game) we have guys who play baseball(Athletes who are projects,do 1 thing well,know how to play but couldn't tell u how many teams are in MLB)

We have started to change that the past 2 years but our FO/Stan Meek will always have that fascination with a guy who throws 100+ but doesn't throw anything else OR the guy who is 6'2 and built like a god but has no clue how to hit a slider

Meek's drafts are predictable AF- He likes power arms especially from MO,OK,TX/3 sport OF who can run but can't hit/2 defensive Catchers/1 position player from University of Kentucky/Lefty Arms/23 yr olds who will sign cheap with 4 or 5 surviving till the next year

A Stan Meek wet dream would be a 6'5 Lefty HS from MO/OK who threw 98-100 and might be a close one in this draft. Cody Ross's cousin(yep that Cody Ross) is Trevor Rogers. 6'6 Lefty throws 95 from NM!!!

- - - - - - - - - -

Another Marlins gem!!!! Blake Treinen was named Nats Closer. U might remember Blake from our few years of voided contracts due to physicals. Yep instead of signing guys and letting them rehab we had 2 or 3 years where we voided contracts

The 6'4'' right-hander was drafted in the 23rd round by the Marlins out of South Dakota State last June and flew to South Florida in anticipation of signing a professional contract. After being out of baseball for nearly three years, Treinen was just happy to have a chance to turn pro after one season of college baseball and had agreed to Florida's terms. But that's where his future plans took a huge detour. During a routine pre-signing MRI, the Marlins found enough inflammation in Treinen's rotator cuff to void his contract. The dejected Treinen was sent home, and he even had to repay his travel expenses to the Marlins in order to regain his college eligibility.

Lucky for us Jeff finally figured out that controlling the rights of an injured guy was better than not. Dillon Peters/Reilly Hovis are 2 of the guys we have gotten since he figured it out

I knew I had heard that Treinen name before. Just figured it was from his time with the nats but I knew that sounded familiar. On a bright side I drafted Kelley from their bullpen thinking he was going to be their closer on a great team in the only fantasy league i pay to play in. So that worked out well.

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On top of drafting cheaply, I really do think a lot of our problems with our prospects are player development related. Even guys we go cheap on go on to do well in other organizations. I do think it has a lot to do with completely unnecessary cheapness from Loria, but also we develop players terribly and also move them in our system in an incredibly inexplicable fashion.

[rmc523]

I wasnt saying that Benedict had worked with those guys. I was making 2 separate points but looking at that post i see how that got confused. I was saying we have given up a stupid amount of good players/prospects in recent years and listed them, while also making the point that I dont see any noticable difference in the guys who are here since Benedict has come over.

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I knew I had heard that Treinen name before. Just figured it was from his time with the nats but I knew that sounded familiar. On a bright side I drafted Kelley from their bullpen thinking he was going to be their closer on a great team in the only fantasy league i pay to play in. So that worked out well.

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On top of drafting cheaply, I really do think a lot of our problems with our prospects are player development related. Even guys we go cheap on go on to do well in other organizations. I do think it has a lot to do with completely unnecessary cheapness from Loria, but also we develop players terribly and also move them in our system in an incredibly inexplicable fashion.

Basically, we need to clean house with new ownership.

[tjfla]

Jake Esch DFA and claimed by SD(Also known as Miami West or Miami with better ownership)

Hey least it wasn't Urena but shows what I have been saying. How do we keep losing guys for NOTHING to the first team in the Waiver Claim order instead of trying to get something for him?

Looks like Tyler Moore is getting the last spot

Another question tho is Odrisamer Despaigne Jeff Loria's son as well? I know this guy is hurt but how the hell has this guy kept his spot? Samson/Mike Hill and Despaigne-Jeff takes good care of his kids!!