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Offseason 2015-2016

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  • Offseason 2015-2016

    MARLINS TALK


    Marlins president David Samson said today that pitcher Jose Fernandez rejected a multiyear contract offer in the months before he returned from Tommy John surgery last July and that he does not appear interested in being presented with another offer at this point.

    Fernandez, who won’t be eligible for free agency until after the 2018 season, has been one of baseball’s best pitchers when healthy, with a 22-9 record and 2.40 earned-run average in his career, over parts of three seasons. Fernandez, who is arbitration-eligible for the first time this winter, was 6-1 with a 2.92 ERA in 11 starts after returning from the major elbow surgery this past July.

    “He was offered what we thought was a very fair, tremendous amount of money,” Samson said. “I don’t believe he had any interest in having another offer [this winter] but we always will talk. He is ours for three years at a minimum. Building around Jose and [Giancarlo] Stanton is two smart things to do, but it takes two people to sign a contract.”

    Samson said conversations on a Fernandez contract broke down over money, not years. “He is a bulldog competitor; he goes out and never thinks about money…,” Samson said. “He is someone who you would want starting in the World Series.”

    Though Samson did not say this, some Marlins people believe agent Scott Boras, who represents Fernandez, does not want his clients signing long-term deals before they get to free agency. Boras disputed that in a conversation earlier this summer.

    “In Jose’s career, it’s a bit premature [to sign a multiyear deal] because he’s still young and has only been doing it for a couple years,” Boras said four months ago. “I’ve had many players go to free agency and re-sign with their existing teams. I’ve had other players that have pursued other avenues. I don’t make the decisions whether they do or don’t…. Miami is a great place for Jose and his family. It’s really a nice union.”

    It’s questionable whether the Marlins ultimately can afford both Fernandez and Stanton, who just completed the first year of a 13 year-$325 million contract, as opposed to one or the other.

    Boras doesn’t see why not: “With TV rights and the general fund contribution and everything --- every club, before they sell a ticket, they’re making $120 million. There’s a lot of revenue in this game to pay a lot of players and keep players at home.”

    ### Samson said the Marlins need pitching but do not intend to pursue the highest-priced arms in free agency.

    “We will not be going after David Price. We will not be going after Zack Greinke,” Samson said. “That’s unequivocal. We don’t want to play in that space. In my experience, those free agent contracts don’t work and I would never have [owner] Jeffrey [Loria] spend his money that way and incur more losses for a contract like that that don’t work. Longterm position player contracts work. I just don’t think longterm pitching contracts work.”

    Michael Hill, the Marlins’ president/baseball operations, said Loria has not indicated what the 2016 payroll will be.

    ### Samson said pitcher Henderson Alvarez, coming off shoulder surgery, will not be ready for the start of the regular season and said it will be a “very” difficult decision about whether to tender him a contract offer by the early December deadline. “Guaranteed he’s not in the starting rotation to start the season,” Samson said.

    Alvarez was 12-7 in 2014 but just 0-4 in four starts this past season.

    ### Samson said the Marlins are a couple of weeks from determining dimensions for MarlinsPark. “There’s a very high likelihood there will be a change of some sort,” he said. “Part of the fences will move [in] is my guess. We may lower the fences [too].”

    ### In offering perspective on the Marlins’ recent history, Samson cited the Kansas City Royals, who had a winning record only once in 18 years between 1995 and 2012 before making the World Series last year and winning it this year.

    “Look at Kansas City,” he said. “How many years did they spend in misery? There was a lot of losing there for a lot of years and then it was time for them to win. It’s time for us to win.”
    http://miamiherald.typepad.com/sport...lace-wake.html

    ------

    -Don't blame Jose for wanting to crush 2016 and get a bigger payday. I doubt the Marlins offered Bumgarner money and tried to shave 20% off the deal.

    -If they really make $120 million before ticket sales and other exploitations, beyond criminal they don't have a $100 million payroll.

    -I don't blame them not going for Price, Greinke, Cueto, etc., but they need to get two #3 or better SP

    -Might be smart to give Alvarez a 2-3 year contract and guarantee him money he may not get if he is cut loose. This is kind of like the situation with Anibal where they could have probably given him a cheap 3 year contract coming off the surgery, and then he became pretty awesome and priced himself out of affordability.

    -KC has had an incredible farm system for years. Hard to discount developing Fernandez, Stanton, Yelich, Ozuna, Ramos, Realmuto, etc., but please. Operate like a real franchise.

  • #2
    Would LOL at non-tendering Alvarez
    Originally posted by Madman81
    Most of the people in the world being dumb is not a requirement for you to be among their ranks.
    Need help? Questions? Concerns? Want to chat? PM me!

    Comment


    • #3
      I've always been fascinated by Samson's need to just come out and tell the media what the team will/will not be doing. Why come out and tell people that we won't make a long-term offer for a free agent pitcher? How the fuck does that help us? And it just helps other teams sign these pitchers because it's just another team they don't have to worry about.

      The guy is in love with the sound of his own voice.
      Last edited by Nick; 11-03-2015, 02:03 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Baseball free agency starts in the next week, and the Marlins simply must reverse a disturbing pattern.

        While they’ve made some good trades, they’re on a disconcerting cold streak with offseason signings; most of their top free agent additions in the past several years weren't longterm (and in most cases, even short-term) solutions --- Heath Bell, Jose Reyes, Mark Buehrle, Garrett Jones, Michael Morse, John Buck, Jarrod Saltalamacchia and Rafael Furcal. All except Reyes and Buehrle were busts.

        Their best signing, Casey McGehee, faded after four good months and was traded last winter, then returned this summer and hit .182 here after the Giants released him.

        Michael Hill, the Marlins’ president/baseball operations, said none of this will make the Marlins gun-shy about spending in free agency. “When they don’t work out, you take a step back and see why they didn’t work out because we don’t want to repeat a mistake,” Hill said.

        Marlins president David Samson said “we have full belief in all of our baseball guys who work for Mike --- and Mike” but “you can’t deny that we’ve made some mistakes. We made the wrong decisions about the people surrounding our core. So we're going to have [some] new players. There’s one team that can deal with mistakes and cover them up. There used to be three or four. Now it’s just one: the Dodgers.”

        The offseason mission is clear: “We need pitching,” Samson said. “Love the core we have of position players. You look at the NL East; this is our time. We have three of the top 10 players in baseball [Giancarlo Stanton, Jose Fernandez, Dee Gordon]. Maybe we're wrong. But we feel that way.

        “[But] we need to get better pitching. We’ll figure out how to do it. We have to do it in a way where we lose as little money as possible. We are spending time trying to raise revenue. We’re trying to do a [stadium] naming rights deal which we hopefully will have by the beginning of next season, certainly by 2017. We’re trying to do a TV deal that we’ve been working on for years. We’re trying to sell more tickets. Our season tickets are up.”

        Samson, who has already publicly ruled out pursuing the most expensive free agent pitchers, said the Marlins have challenged their baseball people “to tell us who on that list of 80 free agent pitchers,… which five guys are going to win 13 games and outperform their contracts.”

        They are willing to spend $5 million to $12 million annually for a pitcher and might consider going to $15 million for the right one, but likely no higher. Texas’ Yovani Gallardo would be an interesting option in the high end of that range.

        The lineup will remain the same unless Marcell Ozuna is traded; owner Jeffrey Loria has been down on him. Cleveland has interest in Ozuna and has young pitching to offer in return (Danny Salazar and Carlos Carrasco are among those who reportedly could be in play in trades). The Marlins likely would sign two starting pitchers if they keep Ozuna, one if they deal Ozuna for a pitcher.

        “Ozuna has to commit himself to the game,” one veteran National League scout said. “He does so many things wrong. He doesn’t always concentrate defensively. He has to watch his weight, learn the strike zone. I would trade him if I could because I don’t know if he will get it."

        Though several teams have inquired, the Marlins prefer not to trade third baseman Martin Prado, a respected team leader who finished the season strong. The Yankees will again pay $3 million of the $11 million he’s owed next season.

        Though the Marlins have given thought to pursuing a closer, they’re more inclined to spend their money on starting pitcher, and an outfielder if Ozuna is traded. “AJ Ramos, you look at his numbers, he was a good closer,” Hill said.
        http://miamiherald.typepad.com/sport...phins-hea.html

        I guess its more of the same. LOL at Dee Gordon comment, but at least they understand they need two SP. I'm fine sitting out of Greinke, Cueto, Price, etc. I'm not sure those guys are worth $125+ after age 30. They can get guys like Kazmir and Samardzija for the upper range of their prices. Trade Koehler and Dunn for young lefty relievers.

        Fernandez, X, X, Cosart, Nicolino (Alvarez DL)
        Ramos, Capps, Morris, Phelps, and some assortment of Barraclough, Urena, Ellington, Rienzo, Flores as the 5th RHP/call ups and Conley, Hand, and new acquisitions for the lefties.

        We'll see. I'd keep Ozuna unless Cleveland (or someone else) is actually dumb enough to trade someone like Carrasco, Salazar, or Bauer in a package.

        That'll be pretty good. Just get Bour a lefty hitting dude for the bench.

        Comment


        • #5
          Gallardo would be awful at that money. But I am biased after seeing him pitch so long here in Milwaukee. Samardzja would be interesting. Maybe him coming back to the NL gets him going again?

          Comment


          • #6
            I think Samardzija in a big NL park (even with fences coming in), a weaker division with Phillies and Braves, and a good team defense makes a lot of sense for a one year rebuild value contract. One year of Samardzija and a veteran # 3 lefty would be great and give them a chance.

            Agree on Gallatdo. Pass unless really cheap.

            Comment


            • #7
              Samardzija/Zimmerman+Kazmir would be ideal.

              Comment


              • #8
                Still not a fan of trading Ozuna. The guy had what was ostensibly three bad months following a 4+ win season yet we're going to let that paint the picture of what he is. Over the last two months, his slash line was up and his contact rate was too. Trading him now would be a mistake because you won't get anything really good in the return unless the team is desperate (and Cleveland really isn't) for a right-handed power bat.

                I suppose that it's fair to say that he's on the heavier side but to my knowledge that hasn't affected his defense or hitting ability in any tangible way.

                Comment


                • #9
                  How can you trade a guy with a cannon arm that can hit the top of a foul pole on a HR?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Namaste View Post
                    How can you trade a guy with a cannon arm that can hit the top of a foul pole on a HR?
                    Marlins.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The hiring of Benedict was a sign of our approach to SP in the free agent market.

                      Look at what Pittsburgh did the last few years, that's the plan.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I've been on the Zimmermann/Samardzija bandwagon for a while and don't plan to get off. Like lou said, Samardzija moving to the National League seems like a nice risk to take and could pay huge dividends if he reverts to even 75% of the pitcher he was with the Cubs. He still strikes out people at a good rate and has the ability to go deep into games even on his bad days. Always have to be scared of the home run total, but if we maintain even a little of how pitcher friendly dimensions next year, that and the move to the NL should see his numbers return to a mid 3 ERA level (at least hopefully). Zimmermann is hugely consistent, putting up basically 200 IP the last four years and hasn't posted above a 3.66 ERA (which was this year, giving us a potential top tier pitcher at his "lowest" value). Really disappointed to see they view Zimmermann as a top tier pitcher they can't afford, as I feel he's in the lower end of that top tier, which is exactly the kind of guy we need if they really want to compete. Zimmermann is 29 and Samardzija 30, meaning we'd be grabbing both guys at what should be the peak end of their career. I would bank on Zimmermann having four really good years in him, and Samardzija is the perfect "throw a 1 year, $10-15 million heavily incentive laden contract" kind of guy who would want to prove himself. We'd look to get a great year out of Samardzija, and he'd want to put up a low 3 ERA season and make bank with a playoff team next offseason.

                        I still feel this is the best course of action, but things get a lot more tricky if the team is looking to just grab two pitchers in the middle tier area (guys in Lincecum territory). If they're hoping to grab those guys for cheap and hope they outperform their abilities, we're likely in for another sub .500 season. There's no doubt given the team's budget limitations, they're going to have to grab one guy from the middle tier range and hope he plays over his head next year (Samardzija in my scenario), but they need a #2 pitcher (which has to be Zimmermann territory) given the uncertain status of Alvarez. I honestly have no idea who our #2 pitcher is right now after Fernandez without Alvarez starting the year. Is it Nicolino? Because if it is, god help us.

                        - - - - - - - - - -

                        In my opinion, trading away both the mixture of bombing on Latos, trading away Heaney/Desclafani, not drafting Rodon, and the huge pile of Conley/Urena/Flores/Nicolino/etc... not establishing themselves at the end of last season as guys who could potentially be #3 options next season; all of these missteps and miscalculations has really given this team no choice but to spend on that Zimmermann range pitcher if they actually want to win next year. The lineup can get by for next season if everybody plays to or above expectations (although trading Ozuna creates an unnecessary hole), but the rotation is such a mess that if the team accidentally picks up another Latos free agent pitcher, this team has no chance of competing. The farm system is so thin that there is absolutely no room for error/injury in either the starting rotation or starting lineup. I honestly believe the team needs a near perfect offseason to become a playoff team next year. I'm usually all for finding underrated values, but at least one pitcher this team needs to spend.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          It's hard to knock Heaney because of Gordon, but it is disappointing that Latos/DeScalfani produced nothing to write home about even if it was worth it to go for it in theory. Also, DeScalfani might not crack the staff next year anyways if they sign 2 SP. Not a huge blow there. I don't really care about those moves.

                          Rodon is the stupidity. He is exactly what they need - a frontline lefty right now. This could have radically impacted this offseason and was easy to see coming. I'll never understand why they took Kolek. Hopefully they get the last laugh though and Kolek is amazing in 3 years.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by lou View Post
                            It's hard to knock Heaney because of Gordon, but it is disappointing that Latos/DeScalfani produced nothing to write home about even if it was worth it to go for it in theory. Also, DeScalfani might not crack the staff next year anyways if they sign 2 SP. Not a huge blow there. I don't really care about those moves.

                            Rodon is the stupidity. He is exactly what they need - a frontline lefty right now. This could have radically impacted this offseason and was easy to see coming. I'll never understand why they took Kolek. Hopefully they get the last laugh though and Kolek is amazing in 3 years.
                            We didn't take Rodon because the FO(None of which are here anymore) thought Rodon couldn't start or as i heard it,be lucky to get 5 innings out of him and when his $ came in they liked him even less. The FO saw Kolek as Jameson Taillon. A guy who can is big throws 100 and will probably make the majors in 3 years instead they got IDK? A big guy who throws 100 but can't locate it and looks like a bullpen arm at best(right now)

                            The 2 big reasons tho for not taking Rodon was some thought he could only go 5 innings at most(WHY? No idea) and his Signing Bonus #.

                            Its like the reason they didnt mind trading Desco,the FO saw him more as a BP arm and Latos was a SP. When they made that deal,in the FO mind it was a RP and at best a backup C for a #3 SP

                            - - - - - - - - - -

                            As for Ozuna they are really trying hard to move him. With the Fish being the ones calling,they really want to try to get a SP out of him. The Mattingly hiring did him in,Jeff and his boys already know Mattingly won't deal with his shit.(See Puig from LY)

                            The idea is DD/Ichiro and Prado can handle LF and if they get a good SP for him he is gone.

                            STUPID IDEA but it is the Fish. The GM meetings start on the 9th and don't be surprised if Mike Hill is running to every team about Ozuna

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Why do you keep on bringing up Prado in LF, man? He doesn't have value if he's not in the infield and we don't have any other suitable candidates at 3B.

                              Comment

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