Marlins 2017-2018 Offseason Discussion Thread

[fish16]

Why should we...did the new ownership give the fans a chance to respond & turnout now that Loria is gone ? No....and now they will want MLB prices for tix to see a AA team.

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Based on what....wishful thinking ? Dude you dong sucking of the front office is hilarious.

Probably because it was smarter to start the much needed rebuild than trot out the same BAD team out there for a 10th straight year. Whats better for the franchise? Having maybe, not guaranteed, 3-5000 more fans for the same shitty team or starting a much needed rebuild and doing it the way every smart franchise is rebuilding in modern baseball and hoping to create a sustainable winning team that will then turn out fans later? Also, give me a break with this bullshit that fans were just waiting to pour into the stadium to watch yet another bad team simply because Loria is now gone. It is a flat out stupid and disingenuous argument. Everything about this regions baseball history would tell you that wouldnt actually be the case, and we'd waste yet another year fielding a below .500 team with no actual plan of how to compete.


Based on the fact that he hasnt pitched in full season ball which is the reason why he isnt higher in the rankings as of right now. Guys skyrocket up the rankings all the time going from rookie ball to full season ball once they pitch well in full season ball. Forrest Whitley went from 78 last year to #8 this year. AJ Puk did it going from 93 to 13. Triston Mckenzie did it going from 85 last year to 19 this year. Sixto Sanchez was unranked last year and is 23 this year. Corbin Burnes went from unranked to #24. Alex Hansen did it going from unranked to #49.

If Guzman goes to greensboro/jupiter and pitches well he will sky rocket up those rankings.

[rmc523]

Probably because it was smarter to start the much needed rebuild than trot out the same BAD team out there for a 10th straight year. Whats better for the franchise? Having maybe, not guaranteed, 3-5000 more fans for the same shitty team or starting a much needed rebuild and doing it the way every smart franchise is rebuilding in modern baseball and hoping to create a sustainable winning team that will then turn out fans later? Also, give me a break with this bullshit that fans were just waiting to pour into the stadium to watch yet another bad team simply because Loria is now gone. It is a flat out stupid and disingenuous argument. Everything about this regions baseball history would tell you that wouldnt actually be the case, and we'd waste yet another year fielding a below .500 team with no actual plan of how to compete.


Based on the fact that he hasnt pitched in full season ball which is the reason why he isnt higher in the rankings as of right now. Guys skyrocket up the rankings all the time going from rookie ball to full season ball once they pitch well in full season ball. Forrest Whitley went from 78 last year to #8 this year. AJ Puk did it going from 93 to 13. Triston Mckenzie did it going from 85 last year to 19 this year. Sixto Sanchez was unranked last year and is 23 this year. Corbin Burnes went from unranked to #24. Alex Hansen did it going from unranked to #49.

If Guzman goes to greensboro/jupiter and pitches well he will sky rocket up those rankings.

I think you underestimate the Loria "anchor" affect. Not saying we'd have a full ballpark every night, but there are a lot of people that have written off the team as long as Loria owned it. That said, who knows if the same people have now already written of THIS ownership group since their first moves were to dump everyone....again.

[lou]

I think you underestimate the Loria "anchor" affect. Not saying we'd have a full ballpark every night, but there are a lot of people that have written off the team as long as Loria owned it. That said, who knows if the same people have now already written of THIS ownership group since their first moves were to dump everyone....again.

I don't think attendance would have shifted to any notable effect. Sure, everyone hates Loria, but it's still Miami and you got to win. Look at the Hurricanes Notre Dame/Virginia Tech games this year as the latest example. Just win baby. I don't see how they could have added 10+ wins to this team in 2018 to get them to where they needed to be. It's literally convincing Arrieta and Darvish to sign, and hoping for peak years from each. It's just the sad reality that this team was built to win with Fernandez (who would have fit with basically Volquez salary figure) and Chen, and we don't need to go there.

I do think though they need to do much better PR of what they are doing. Be more honest with the fan base, do some things to show you have a longterm plan even with the tear down (say "we are not trading Yelich this year no matter the offer," sign Realmuto for 5 years which is so fucking obvious, why didn't we see a press release yesterday where they are congratulating Alcantara and Guzman as top prospects in BA (although in their defense they did post about Anderson being selected as a top 10 3B prospect in baseball in some MLB article), etc.).

They still do have an opportunity to not look like Loria, but it's hard to not agree that this ownerships first moves just look like a continuation of what's been happening for years even if the correct baseball moves is to clear salary, get prospects, and aim for a few years down the road when you have more pitching.

We'll see. I still think they need to be completely unforgiving, make baseball decisions, and trade off minimum Straily, Bour, Castro, Prado, Ziegler, Tazawa, Barraclough, and Dietrich by July 31st, preferably sooner for the first 6 of them, so they can allocate some of that money to signing dudes like Danny Valencia/Chris Tillman to rehab and flip at the deadline, and to sign Realmuto longterm right now. Start building a longterm sustainable team and a winner. To me, that's how you create/restore consumer confidence. Marlins have never been consistent like the Heat, or Marino Dolphins. It's time for them to figure that out.

[tjfla]

Brinson, Ortiz, Huira, Burnes, Isan Diaz, Freddy Peralta are all exciting.

Not a team I had heard were in on Yelich BUT Mish is solid and gives good info so. With that being said the Marlins and Milwaukee have been talking since last July. They have talked on Straily,Gordon,RP and Castro-the prospects they like are Luis Ortiz,Corbin Burnes,Isan Diaz,Mauricio Dubon,Freddy Peralta

No confirmation but the deal we would be looking at would be

Milwaukee-Yelich
Miami-Lewis Brinson,Corbin Burns,Luis Ortiz and either Diaz or Dubon

ML Ready RF,2 very nice arms who would fit well and a MIF

If Milwaukee wanted Castro I could see Cody Ponce or Diplan and "project" arm incuded
If Milwaukee wanted Straily I could see Freddy Peralta and a Nottingham/Gatewood type

They have what it takes to get Yelich and while true Brinson is NOT elite he is Top 20 Prospect in MLB 6'5 200lbs with power and ready to go. Cant really count his AAA stats LY since was in CO Springs but hit .331 with power

Also we don't have to see Yelich every day either if hes in Milwaukee instead of Atlanta

[Namaste]

I think trading Yelich to Atlanta (unless it’s a Yelich for Acuna straight up) is a really bad idea when 5 other teams are interested in him.

[tjfla]

I think trading Yelich to Atlanta (unless it’s a Yelich for Acuna straight up) is a really bad idea when 5 other teams are interested in him.

Agreed the issue is Atlanta has the best offer by far. No clue what Milwaukee offered but Atlanta's beats Philly,SD,Arizona,LA and thats without Acuna

They have been waiting for new teams to jump in like Milwaukee/CWS/Toronto. They dont really want to trade within the NL East the issue is those have been the best deal they have gotten so far

[Maddawg]

Probably because it was smarter to start the much needed rebuild than trot out the same BAD team out there for a 10th straight year. Whats better for the franchise? Having maybe, not guaranteed, 3-5000 more fans for the same shitty team or starting a much needed rebuild and doing it the way every smart franchise is rebuilding in modern baseball and hoping to create a sustainable winning team that will then turn out fans later? Also, give me a break with this bullshit that fans were just waiting to pour into the stadium to watch yet another bad team simply because Loria is now gone. It is a flat out stupid and disingenuous argument. Everything about this regions baseball history would tell you that wouldnt actually be the case, and we'd waste yet another year fielding a below .500 team with no actual plan of how to compete.


Based on the fact that he hasnt pitched in full season ball which is the reason why he isnt higher in the rankings as of right now. Guys skyrocket up the rankings all the time going from rookie ball to full season ball once they pitch well in full season ball. Forrest Whitley went from 78 last year to #8 this year. AJ Puk did it going from 93 to 13. Triston Mckenzie did it going from 85 last year to 19 this year. Sixto Sanchez was unranked last year and is 23 this year. Corbin Burnes went from unranked to #24. Alex Hansen did it going from unranked to #49.

If Guzman goes to greensboro/jupiter and pitches well he will sky rocket up those rankings.

You obviously don't understand ALL the dynamics surrounding this team (neither do I but I'd like to think I have a better grasp on this than you seem to have).

The major reason for low attendance was LORIA. Unless you live here you do not and cannot possibly understand how hated that man was. After 2012 when I was a season tix holder, I vowed to never pay for another piece of gear, or buy a ticket to a Marlins game. And I've held true to that. Many others I know felt the same way.....Loria had burned us at least twice and lied to get his stadium. I know of at least 4 other good friends who have done the same....3 of them actively root for the Rays now and go on road trips to Tampa twice or three times a year to see them. They were so happy when Loria was selling the team. But all 3 have already told me they want to give the Marlins a chance but they are unhappy the product will be so bad that thay are planning an opening day trip to Tampa instead of attending the Marlins opening day...because they just don't like Jeter and the way this all has been handled. They understand the need to rebuild, but they say the tactics used seem like they are right out of the Loria playbook and they want to support a franchise that at least cares about it's fanbase and treats them as people and not cattle (quote from Javier)

[lou]

They understand the need to rebuild, but they say the tactics used seem like they are right out of the Loria playbook and they want to support a franchise that at least cares about it's fanbase and treats them as people and not cattle (quote from Javier)

For my own curiosity, let's say the Marlins got Sheffield instead of Guzman and Flaherty instead of Alcantara. i.e., two guys ranked 40-50 spots up in the top 100 list. Would you or your friends be happy, or is it still the Loria playbook?

It's hard for me to understand knowledge that you need to rebuild and get pitching, and the only way you can do that is trade your most expensive players 2-3 years from free agency (as under no circumstances are you contending those years with Straily as your ace and the very unlikely ability to lure Darvish/others in free agency) to get prospects/theoretically open up payroll to get more pitchers in a year or two, versus just calling it the Loria playbook.

Is it being upset over the returns, which I think is valid criticism, or what is it? Bad PR in explaining what's going on? Because I can't see on a baseball level how moving the three of them wasn't the correct baseball move - and those were caused by two things, 1-Loria generally for years not spending on talent acquisition in the draft/IFA.etc., and 2-Fernandez not being the anchor of the team. Questioning the return? Sure, I can buy that.

The Loria playbook to me is, trading Yelich, who is signed for 5 years cheap for his age 26-30 seasons, and assuming you do that you know the rest of them are going next, and you're literally fielding a 50+ win AAA team for at least half the season before call ups, for a payroll under $40 million which is below what they got from just BAMtech, and they use that to pay off debt, Jeter bonus, etc. That is bullshit and treating the fanbase like a bunch of assholes.

I just can't go as far as you regarding these moves, unless the anger is pitted in the questionable returns which I certainly get.

[Maddawg]

I do see where youre coming from and we can just agree to disagree, i just dont think that makes you end up getting anything better for him. I think the only thing that does is make the yankees know theyre the only one involved in the bidding. It was clear the dodgers werent really interested given what they were offering (if you believe tjfla), and I think what they were trying to do was to try to bring more teams in while they were negotiating with the yankees in the hopes of maybe extracting more when Stanton inevitably declined the trade to SF and STL. I also dont think it was unthinkable that Stanton ended up choosing SF or STL if we told him that it was a choice between going there or staying here during a full on rebuild.

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.

But it makes you look competent, and the way you are percieved is VERY important because players & agents are looking and watching and your reputation goes before you. Some players in the future may have very similar offers from the Marlins & another team, and in weighing things out....how the way the Stanton deal was handled may become a reason a player chooses the other team. Subtle things like this do make a difference a lot of the time.

Jeter's immaturity and ego got the best of him in this situation and he may just have cost himself that one piece he may need when it comes time to fit the right FA pieces together for a championship.

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For my own curiosity, let's say the Marlins got Sheffield instead of Guzman and Flaherty instead of Alcantara. i.e., two guys ranked 40-50 spots up in the top 100 list. Would you or your friends be happy, or is it still the Loria playbook?

It's hard for me to understand knowledge that you need to rebuild and get pitching, and the only way you can do that is trade your most expensive players 2-3 years from free agency (as under no circumstances are you contending those years with Straily as your ace and the very unlikely ability to lure Darvish/others in free agency) to get prospects/theoretically open up payroll to get more pitchers in a year or two, versus just calling it the Loria playbook.

Is it being upset over the returns, which I think is valid criticism, or what is it? Bad PR in explaining what's going on? Because I can't see on a baseball level how moving the three of them wasn't the correct baseball move - and those were caused by two things, 1-Loria generally for years not spending on talent acquisition in the draft/IFA.etc., and 2-Fernandez not being the anchor of the team. Questioning the return? Sure, I can buy that.

The Loria playbook to me is, trading Yelich, who is signed for 5 years cheap for his age 26-30 seasons, and assuming you do that you know the rest of them are going next, and you're literally fielding a 50+ win AAA team for at least half the season before call ups, for a payroll under $40 million which is below what they got from just BAMtech, and they use that to pay off debt, Jeter bonus, etc. That is bullshit and treating the fanbase like a bunch of assholes.

I just can't go as far as you regarding these moves, unless the anger is pitted in the questionable returns which I certainly get.

That is exactly where the anger is.....the returns and as it stands right now, the WORST decision Jeter has made and that was to keep Michael Hill. We've had big discussions over this. How do you keep the one guy most responsible for the HORRIFIC farm system ? He's been in charge for at least 5 years without Beinfest and the farm has gotten worse each season. How can you have that many drafts and not find a single player in the top 100 prospects in MLB. Meanwhile other teams have 3 or 4 or even as many as 5. You can't come up with at least 1 ??????

When they saw that Michael Hill was being kept Javy and Ronaldo said fuck them, same old Marlins and that Jeter is either being stupid on purpose (which we can't figure out why, or he is really naïve than anyone would have believed. Ronaldo told me once that he thinks Jeters ass has been kissed for so long, that he doesn't really know how the real world works. Everyone has always just done and said everything he wants done and he doesn't have much empathy for others because it's "his world and we are just gnats in it".

[fish16]

You obviously don't understand ALL the dynamics surrounding this team (neither do I but I'd like to think I have a better grasp on this than you seem to have).

The major reason for low attendance was LORIA. Unless you live here you do not and cannot possibly understand how hated that man was. After 2012 when I was a season tix holder, I vowed to never pay for another piece of gear, or buy a ticket to a Marlins game. And I've held true to that. Many others I know felt the same way.....Loria had burned us at least twice and lied to get his stadium. I know of at least 4 other good friends who have done the same....3 of them actively root for the Rays now and go on road trips to Tampa twice or three times a year to see them. They were so happy when Loria was selling the team. But all 3 have already told me they want to give the Marlins a chance but they are unhappy the product will be so bad that thay are planning an opening day trip to Tampa instead of attending the Marlins opening day...because they just don't like Jeter and the way this all has been handled. They understand the need to rebuild, but they say the tactics used seem like they are right out of the Loria playbook and they want to support a franchise that at least cares about it's fanbase and treats them as people and not cattle (quote from Javier)

I live 10 minutes from the stadium and have lived in south florida my entire life (aside from 4 years at FSU), im pretty sure i have a grasp on the issues. the major reason for low attendance was not Loria. Im not claiming some people didnt go because of him. But it is not to the point where we could bring back the same exact team and all of a sudden have this instant major increase in attendance. That's simply wrong. No team in this market draws crowds consistently without being a winner. Even the heat the last few years havent drawn exceedingly well post-lebron when the teams have been average at best. I'd know because i've had season tickets every year since Shaq's first year. I had dolphins season tickets from around 1998-2006 and saw the same thing. It's not a Loria issue, its a market issue with sports teams.

Again, im not saying there arent fans who sit there now and say that they would be going consistently if they just brought back the same team. I'm saying that if this team was still the same mediocre team we've been essentially since 2003, they wouldnt actually have gone and the overall attendance increase would be negligible. The increase in the amount of people who would be going more now would be offset by the lack of overall interest in yet another under .500 team.

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honest question for maddawg cause im genuinely interested- if we brought back the same exact team except obviously Loria is no longer the owner, what do you think our attendance is?

[rmc523]

For my own curiosity, let's say the Marlins got Sheffield instead of Guzman and Flaherty instead of Alcantara. i.e., two guys ranked 40-50 spots up in the top 100 list. Would you or your friends be happy, or is it still the Loria playbook?

It's hard for me to understand knowledge that you need to rebuild and get pitching, and the only way you can do that is trade your most expensive players 2-3 years from free agency (as under no circumstances are you contending those years with Straily as your ace and the very unlikely ability to lure Darvish/others in free agency) to get prospects/theoretically open up payroll to get more pitchers in a year or two, versus just calling it the Loria playbook.

Is it being upset over the returns, which I think is valid criticism, or what is it? Bad PR in explaining what's going on? Because I can't see on a baseball level how moving the three of them wasn't the correct baseball move - and those were caused by two things, 1-Loria generally for years not spending on talent acquisition in the draft/IFA.etc., and 2-Fernandez not being the anchor of the team. Questioning the return? Sure, I can buy that.

The Loria playbook to me is, trading Yelich, who is signed for 5 years cheap for his age 26-30 seasons, and assuming you do that you know the rest of them are going next, and you're literally fielding a 50+ win AAA team for at least half the season before call ups, for a payroll under $40 million which is below what they got from just BAMtech, and they use that to pay off debt, Jeter bonus, etc. That is bullshit and treating the fanbase like a bunch of assholes.

I just can't go as far as you regarding these moves, unless the anger is pitted in the questionable returns which I certainly get.

I also think it's a mistake to look at any one issue in a vacuum, because (if I'm understanding right), his issue is not any one particular issue. It's the combination of them all that makes it look like more of the same, and that's how I feel as well.

To me, there are 5 key components I have issue with so far in their ownership:
1)Returns
2)Optics
3)Draft/IFA
4)Future Outlook
5)Rebuilding

Now, let's break down those 5 components....

1) Returns: I won't get into this too much, as it's been discussed ad nauseam already, but the returns we've gotten so far has left a lot to be desired, despite how giddy some members are about them. How you don't get a top guy (not squeaking in the top 100) for Ozuna I don't understand. And not getting more than a bag of peanuts for Stanton (yes, I know, the contract), I don't get either. These moves were Loria-esque, in that saving money/getting money off the books seemed like the driving force for the moves, rather than maximizing the return for the player. I think those of us who have been unhappy with the returns would've been ok with them had we paid more, but gotten better players back.

2) Optics: Optically they've done just about everything wrong. Aside from the obvious - the first move for the team known for firesales is to conduct another firesale - as has been pointed out - they kept Michael Hill in his same role. Whether he has any power or not doesn't matter - from an outsider perspective, it looks like the same guy is in charge - the same guy that's been responsible for us treading water for how long now? I know Loria may have limited Hill's moves, but that doesn't matter - he was still Loria's guy. You're going to come in, (rightly) trash the owner saying bad moves have been made, etc., and then keep the guy that was running it? As I've said before, if you want to keep him as a scout or as an adviser who knows the system while transitioning, ok, I could get that, but to keep him in charge? They fire the Dawson, Conine, McKeon, and Perez group - were they unnecessary? Maybe, but it looked terrible....then to double down on it by crawling back offering a reduced contract after public outcry. They fired that guy while in the hospital. They dumped Rich Waltz. Jeter didn't go to the Winter Meetings. The Stanton 'negotiations' were botched from day one. The Yelich situation is being mishandled - Jeter sees no need to talk to him? Really? Etc. etc.

Collectively, everything just looks terrible and puts egg on their faces right away. They had an easy opportunity to be liked even if for the simple fact that they're not Loria, yet they seem to be screwing it up.

3) Draft/IFA: This is a big concern to me. In all of his public appearances/speeches, I haven't once heard Jeter mention the draft or IFA. All I've heard him talk about is a "not" rebuild and that we'll reduce contract obligations. Maybe it's part of the plan, but he needs to publicly say something along the lines of "we're going to spend heavily in the draft and IFA in order to help build the club from below so we don't have to be reliant on free agent acquisitions which sometimes don't work out well." This is one of the painfully obvious mistakes Loria made - he tried to be cheap at ALL levels, without realizing that being "less" cheap in the draft/IFA would've meant he could be "cheap" at the major league level, but still be good if you develop an inexpensive core through the draft/IFA.

4) Future Outlook: If what's been reported on project wolverine is any indication, they're delusional. Projecting significant attendance and revenue increases, when they know the plan is to ship everyone out? Just because? While I believe there would've been a "non-Loria" affect on attendance, I'm not sure the levels they were projecting was realistic, and that's BEFORE the trades. Now it's delusional. But to be fair, their projections may (should) have changed by now to reflect the (negative) affect of the moves thus far.

5) Rebuild: This is the one I have the least issue with. As much as I'd like to keep the team together, I know we need a rebuild, as the pitching pieces just aren't there in the system, and the out of system help would cost a ton - if we could even get it. But as I pointed out above, it needed to be done in a "non-Loria" way - throwing in more money to get a better return, not just shipping out guys to dump the contract as has been happening. You mentioned trading the controlled Yelich as a "loria" move - yet they're about to do just that. I realize he's also the most valuable piece we have to trade, but it sounds like they're going to cave to the other team's offer as they always do, just to facilitate a deal "because."

The bottom line is, I want to give the new ownership group a chance, but everything thus far has been negative, and with delusional projections and minimal returns, it makes it more difficult to see hope in the future. That's the problem we're having, or at least from my perspective, anyway.

[fish16]

I also think it's a mistake to look at any one issue in a vacuum, because (if I'm understanding right), his issue is not any one particular issue. It's the combination of them all that makes it look like more of the same, and that's how I feel as well.

To me, there are 5 key components I have issue with so far in their ownership:
1)Returns
2)Optics
3)Draft/IFA
4)Future Outlook
5)Rebuilding

Now, let's break down those 5 components....

1) Returns: I won't get into this too much, as it's been discussed ad nauseam already, but the returns we've gotten so far has left a lot to be desired, despite how giddy some members are about them. How you don't get a top guy (not squeaking in the top 100) for Ozuna I don't understand. And not getting more than a bag of peanuts for Stanton (yes, I know, the contract), I don't get either. These moves were Loria-esque, in that saving money/getting money off the books seemed like the driving force for the moves, rather than maximizing the return for the player. I think those of us who have been unhappy with the returns would've been ok with them had we paid more, but gotten better players back.

2) Optics: Optically they've done just about everything wrong. Aside from the obvious - the first move for the team known for firesales is to conduct another firesale - as has been pointed out - they kept Michael Hill in his same role. Whether he has any power or not doesn't matter - from an outsider perspective, it looks like the same guy is in charge - the same guy that's been responsible for us treading water for how long now? I know Loria may have limited Hill's moves, but that doesn't matter - he was still Loria's guy. You're going to come in, (rightly) trash the owner saying bad moves have been made, etc., and then keep the guy that was running it? As I've said before, if you want to keep him as a scout or as an adviser who knows the system while transitioning, ok, I could get that, but to keep him in charge? They fire the Dawson, Conine, McKeon, and Perez group - were they unnecessary? Maybe, but it looked terrible....then to double down on it by crawling back offering a reduced contract after public outcry. They fired that guy while in the hospital. They dumped Rich Waltz. Jeter didn't go to the Winter Meetings. The Stanton 'negotiations' were botched from day one. The Yelich situation is being mishandled - Jeter sees no need to talk to him? Really? Etc. etc.

Collectively, everything just looks terrible and puts egg on their faces right away. They had an easy opportunity to be liked even if for the simple fact that they're not Loria, yet they seem to be screwing it up.

3) Draft/IFA: This is a big concern to me. In all of his public appearances/speeches, I haven't once heard Jeter mention the draft or IFA. All I've heard him talk about is a "not" rebuild and that we'll reduce contract obligations. Maybe it's part of the plan, but he needs to publicly say something along the lines of "we're going to spend heavily in the draft and IFA in order to help build the club from below so we don't have to be reliant on free agent acquisitions which sometimes don't work out well." This is one of the painfully obvious mistakes Loria made - he tried to be cheap at ALL levels, without realizing that being "less" cheap in the draft/IFA would've meant he could be "cheap" at the major league level, but still be good if you develop an inexpensive core through the draft/IFA.

4) Future Outlook: If what's been reported on project wolverine is any indication, they're delusional. Projecting significant attendance and revenue increases, when they know the plan is to ship everyone out? Just because? While I believe there would've been a "non-Loria" affect on attendance, I'm not sure the levels they were projecting was realistic, and that's BEFORE the trades. Now it's delusional. But to be fair, their projections may (should) have changed by now to reflect the (negative) affect of the moves thus far.

5) Rebuild: This is the one I have the least issue with. As much as I'd like to keep the team together, I know we need a rebuild, as the pitching pieces just aren't there in the system, and the out of system help would cost a ton - if we could even get it. But as I pointed out above, it needed to be done in a "non-Loria" way - throwing in more money to get a better return, not just shipping out guys to dump the contract as has been happening. You mentioned trading the controlled Yelich as a "loria" move - yet they're about to do just that. I realize he's also the most valuable piece we have to trade, but it sounds like they're going to cave to the other team's offer as they always do, just to facilitate a deal "because."

The bottom line is, I want to give the new ownership group a chance, but everything thus far has been negative, and with delusional projections and minimal returns, it makes it more difficult to see hope in the future. That's the problem we're having, or at least from my perspective, anyway.

i dont have time to get to the why at this point, but there are so many different things you got wrong in numbers 1-3 that it makes it impossible to argue. Idk if youre purposely ignoring things Jeter is saying or doing, but there is just so much wrong with what you said in those 3.

[sports24/7]

Not a team I had heard were in on Yelich BUT Mish is solid and gives good info so. With that being said the Marlins and Milwaukee have been talking since last July. They have talked on Straily,Gordon,RP and Castro-the prospects they like are Luis Ortiz,Corbin Burnes,Isan Diaz,Mauricio Dubon,Freddy Peralta

No confirmation but the deal we would be looking at would be

Milwaukee-Yelich
Miami-Lewis Brinson,Corbin Burns,Luis Ortiz and either Diaz or Dubon

ML Ready RF,2 very nice arms who would fit well and a MIF

If Milwaukee wanted Castro I could see Cody Ponce or Diplan and "project" arm incuded
If Milwaukee wanted Straily I could see Freddy Peralta and a Nottingham/Gatewood type

They have what it takes to get Yelich and while true Brinson is NOT elite he is Top 20 Prospect in MLB 6'5 200lbs with power and ready to go. Cant really count his AAA stats LY since was in CO Springs but hit .331 with power

Also we don't have to see Yelich every day either if hes in Milwaukee instead of Atlanta

That wouldn't be a horrible return. There are some pieces to like. You're not getting that elite guy, but at least you're getting multiple prospects that could be impact players. I'd still rather one of the big named prospects, but I never really expected them to get that, so if they're set on moving Yelich, I could get on board with that return.

[lou]

I also think it's a mistake to look at any one issue in a vacuum, because (if I'm understanding right), his issue is not any one particular issue. It's the combination of them all that makes it look like more of the same, and that's how I feel as well.

To me, there are 5 key components I have issue with so far in their ownership:
1)Returns
2)Optics
3)Draft/IFA
4)Future Outlook
5)Rebuilding

Now, let's break down those 5 components....

1) Returns: I won't get into this too much, as it's been discussed ad nauseam already, but the returns we've gotten so far has left a lot to be desired, despite how giddy some members are about them. How you don't get a top guy (not squeaking in the top 100) for Ozuna I don't understand. And not getting more than a bag of peanuts for Stanton (yes, I know, the contract), I don't get either. These moves were Loria-esque, in that saving money/getting money off the books seemed like the driving force for the moves, rather than maximizing the return for the player. I think those of us who have been unhappy with the returns would've been ok with them had we paid more, but gotten better players back.

2) Optics: Optically they've done just about everything wrong. Aside from the obvious - the first move for the team known for firesales is to conduct another firesale - as has been pointed out - they kept Michael Hill in his same role. Whether he has any power or not doesn't matter - from an outsider perspective, it looks like the same guy is in charge - the same guy that's been responsible for us treading water for how long now? I know Loria may have limited Hill's moves, but that doesn't matter - he was still Loria's guy. You're going to come in, (rightly) trash the owner saying bad moves have been made, etc., and then keep the guy that was running it? As I've said before, if you want to keep him as a scout or as an adviser who knows the system while transitioning, ok, I could get that, but to keep him in charge? They fire the Dawson, Conine, McKeon, and Perez group - were they unnecessary? Maybe, but it looked terrible....then to double down on it by crawling back offering a reduced contract after public outcry. They fired that guy while in the hospital. They dumped Rich Waltz. Jeter didn't go to the Winter Meetings. The Stanton 'negotiations' were botched from day one. The Yelich situation is being mishandled - Jeter sees no need to talk to him? Really? Etc. etc.

Collectively, everything just looks terrible and puts egg on their faces right away. They had an easy opportunity to be liked even if for the simple fact that they're not Loria, yet they seem to be screwing it up.

3) Draft/IFA: This is a big concern to me. In all of his public appearances/speeches, I haven't once heard Jeter mention the draft or IFA. All I've heard him talk about is a "not" rebuild and that we'll reduce contract obligations. Maybe it's part of the plan, but he needs to publicly say something along the lines of "we're going to spend heavily in the draft and IFA in order to help build the club from below so we don't have to be reliant on free agent acquisitions which sometimes don't work out well." This is one of the painfully obvious mistakes Loria made - he tried to be cheap at ALL levels, without realizing that being "less" cheap in the draft/IFA would've meant he could be "cheap" at the major league level, but still be good if you develop an inexpensive core through the draft/IFA.

4) Future Outlook: If what's been reported on project wolverine is any indication, they're delusional. Projecting significant attendance and revenue increases, when they know the plan is to ship everyone out? Just because? While I believe there would've been a "non-Loria" affect on attendance, I'm not sure the levels they were projecting was realistic, and that's BEFORE the trades. Now it's delusional. But to be fair, their projections may (should) have changed by now to reflect the (negative) affect of the moves thus far.

5) Rebuild: This is the one I have the least issue with. As much as I'd like to keep the team together, I know we need a rebuild, as the pitching pieces just aren't there in the system, and the out of system help would cost a ton - if we could even get it. But as I pointed out above, it needed to be done in a "non-Loria" way - throwing in more money to get a better return, not just shipping out guys to dump the contract as has been happening. You mentioned trading the controlled Yelich as a "loria" move - yet they're about to do just that. I realize he's also the most valuable piece we have to trade, but it sounds like they're going to cave to the other team's offer as they always do, just to facilitate a deal "because."

The bottom line is, I want to give the new ownership group a chance, but everything thus far has been negative, and with delusional projections and minimal returns, it makes it more difficult to see hope in the future. That's the problem we're having, or at least from my perspective, anyway.

Love the detail. However, I think it boils down to on the field, and off the field. On the field (returns, draft/ifa, rebuild) is really TBD until we see what they do. I think we all realize they are only halfway through the trades, who knows what the young guys they got already will turn into, and the draft is obviously half a year away, so a lot can change quickly there. I can't really throw shade at them for not saying that sentence about the draft right now, but it will be plainly obvious come the draft, if they sign this Cuban OF in the other post, etc. if they are going to operate at a different level. I think they get the benefit of the doubt for the 2018 season as we see how it all fits together. I do acknowledge this could nosedive fast but we'll see.

The off the field (optics/future out look) has been pretty poorly executed and I agree the PR should be better and the Wolverine plan has many skeptical components, but - and maybe this is just me - I believe winning cures all. If they do a good job with the rebuild and get a good core together, none of this is really going to matter in 2 years if they start looking like a young Astros or Indians team. That's why I don't really care if people are upset (they already were). They need to be unforgiving and build the best longterm team possible. Building a good team is the only cure for fixing the brand to me. Pumping money into a flailing team doesn't do anything. If they signed Chatwood and Chacin this year, won 82 games, and then traded Gordon and Ozuna for even less because they have less years of control, people would be complaining they didn't trade them now and are stupid. It's a no win scenario so I do appreciate they cut the cord.

We'll see how I feel if they ship out Yelich. But yes, that is a Loria move if it happens and really the first indication to me something else is going on besides building a baseball team. He's signed for 5 years cheap. They could have assets to contend with him when he is 28-30. He's completely different than Stanton, Ozuna, and Gordon. I don't know how they could restore confidence, but an amazing package and signing Machado next year would have it make sense maybe, but I think we know the chances of that happening.

[rmc523]

i dont have time to get to the why at this point, but there are so many different things you got wrong in numbers 1-3 that it makes it impossible to argue. Idk if youre purposely ignoring things Jeter is saying or doing, but there is just so much wrong with what you said in those 3.

There is not "so much wrong" in what I said. Like it or not, that's how the ownership group is already perceived by South Florida.

How am I ignoring what Jeter is saying or doing? I've not heard him mention the draft or IFA, and I've seen him not be involved when trading the franchise player (not being at the meetings), and say he sees no need to talk to the players that are left on the team, all while they're all wanting trades out because they don't see a direction for the franchise, just like the rest of South Florida right now.

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Love the detail. However, I think it boils down to on the field, and off the field. On the field (returns, draft/ifa, rebuild) is really TBD until we see what they do. I think we all realize they are only halfway through the trades, who knows what the young guys they got already will turn into, and the draft is obviously half a year away, so a lot can change quickly there. I can't really throw shade at them for not saying that sentence about the draft right now, but it will be plainly obvious come the draft, if they sign this Cuban OF in the other post, etc. if they are going to operate at a different level. I think they get the benefit of the doubt for the 2018 season as we see how it all fits together. I do acknowledge this could nosedive fast but we'll see.

The off the field (optics/future out look) has been pretty poorly executed and I agree the PR should be better and the Wolverine plan has many skeptical components, but - and maybe this is just me - I believe winning cures all. If they do a good job with the rebuild and get a good core together, none of this is really going to matter in 2 years if they start looking like a young Astros or Indians team. That's why I don't really care if people are upset (they already were). They need to be unforgiving and build the best longterm team possible. Building a good team is the only cure for fixing the brand to me. Pumping money into a flailing team doesn't do anything. If they signed Chatwood and Chacin this year, won 82 games, and then traded Gordon and Ozuna for even less because they have less years of control, people would be complaining they didn't trade them now and are stupid. It's a no win scenario so I do appreciate they cut the cord.

We'll see how I feel if they ship out Yelich. But yes, that is a Loria move if it happens and really the first indication to me something else is going on besides building a baseball team. He's signed for 5 years cheap. They could have assets to contend with him when he is 28-30. He's completely different than Stanton, Ozuna, and Gordon. I don't know how they could restore confidence, but an amazing package and signing Machado next year would have it make sense maybe, but I think we know the chances of that happening.

I agree - this town is a bunch of bandwagon fans, and only supports a winner, and won't support a loser - a lot of which has to do with how many people move here from other places - they're fans of other teams, and people that do live here have been hurt time after time by firesales, so there's been no incentive thus far to support the team on a consistent basis.

And I'll agree, they deserve a chance to show that they're different than Loria (I agree that the draft will be telling), my point in that post was just to point out the issues I've seen/had thus far. And I realize that Loria's tenure probably has me jaded in the negative, but when all you have to do to be liked is be "not Loria", tripping over yourselves time after time right out of the gates doesn't look good. Trust me, I'm hopeful that it'll all work out.