Let's All Yell About Larry Beinfest!

[emkayseven]

When I'm around and they're on and there's nothing else to watch I flip it on. If somehow I find out Ruggiano is about to bat, I'll flip it on, too. What he's doing this year is ridiculous.
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Danny Martinez @DannyMartinez4
The Marlins have 4 homegrown players (draft/am FA) that have produced positive rWAR this season. WSH: 18, ATL: 15, NYM: 12 and PHI: 7.

ehe

[Swifty]

BUT BUT BUT he's average, boys!
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Also, who are the 4? The opening day roster featured 5 home-grown guys, 2 of whom I'm fairly sure don't have a positive anything:

Gaby, LoMo, Stanton, Johnson, Coghlan

[Party]

But Beinstein is an average drafter!

[Beef]

Dave beinBerg

[lou]

BUT BUT BUT he's average, boys!
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Also, who are the 4? The opening day roster featured 5 home-grown guys, 2 of whom I'm fairly sure don't have a positive anything:

Gaby, LoMo, Stanton, Johnson, Coghlan

Stanton 3.5
Johnson 3.5
Cishek .5
Morrison .2

Those are the only Marlins players drafted by Beinfest on the team with positive WARs (fangraphs). Morrison's clearly is impressive.

[Swifty]

My bad, completely forgot about Cishek.

[lou]

But Beinstein is an average drafter!

Does average in one aspect of player acquisition get you fired? Does average over X number of years get you fired? I think it's a good question. I would say long standing "averageness" will eventually get you canned. I'm not sure Beinfest has hit that yet though. Maybe another big payroll year of tanking.

Also in his defense, the Marlins are on the verge of potentially catapulting up any draft analysis if Yelich, Fernandez, and Morrison turn into good players, and they get some other contributions from Realmuto/Conley/James/Hand/etc.

[Swifty]

Question for those that may know such things better: the Marlins bullpen being almost completely made up through FA's/trades is fairly unusual, right? As in, most teams develop their bullpens either through converting failed starters or just putting the big velocity back there.

[lou]

Question for those that may know such things better: the Marlins bullpen being almost completely made up through FA's/trades is fairly unusual, right? As in, most teams develop their bullpens either through converting failed starters or just putting the big velocity back there.

I would think so. Think about all the Beinfest years and the scrap heap pens. They pull shit like Lee Gardner and Justin Miller out of their ass, get the Armando and Todd Jones years, even nice multi year contributions from guys like Brian Sanches. You have to give them some credit for that, but it's always turnover, and it's always "hail marys." I like that strategy for the 6-7th guys in the pen, but not really your main setup guy like Justin Miller was that year. You'd imagine somewhere in there they develop a guy (like a Tank, or Kensing, etc) that would have stuck on the pen for awhile, but nope.

Cishek is their best one. They finally developed one.

[Swifty]

Yeah, I would think so too. The problem is (at least I see it) that they've failed fairly spectacularly at developing any kind of meaningful talent (like the 2005 draft should have given the Marlins at least 1-2 pen arms at the worst with all the pitching they took early).

It's not the hail mary plan (I actually kind of like that since relievers are so volatile) it's that when they have a homegrown arm, he usually is so freaking bad he can't crack the 25 man roster.
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Put another way, since 2010 the Marlins have had "8" (4 unique players) "home grown" pitchers appear in 15 or more games with them:

2010 (4): JJ, Volstad, Sanabia, Tank
2011 (2): Cishek, Volstad
2012 (2*) JJ, Cishek (*Jennings has 11 G)

That's a HUGE problem. Like inexcusable kind of problem. I don't care what the payroll is, you have to be able to develop pitching.
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And I also think that it's absolutely fair to look at it in a 2009-2012 time frame. That's when the '05 draft should be hitting. That's when the '06 firesalers should have been peaking and that's when the pieces from the Miggy trade should have been on the roster (and to it's credit, it did peak in 2009, there just wasn't "enough" there; Miggy in what would have been his walk year and/or one more starting pitcher puts that group in the playoffs, hell, getting anything of value for Miggy and that group's in the playoffs).

What he did before was kind of a shared blueprint (Lowell, Beckett, Castillo, Cabrera, etc) but as he really took the blueprint and made it his own, I don't think there's any denying that his teams have been pretty disappointing (save 2009) and he's spectacularly bad at developing players, especially pitchers.
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So, back to your original question, lou, yes, that absolutely should get him fired.

[lou]

Yea, the hail mary plan is great for the back of the pen, but it would be nice to say have, 2 cisheks and 1 choate home grown at all times (which is pretty much drafting a reliever every other year which is a reasonable request). They have missed on a lot of arms. Hopefully this new group is good as the 10-11 drafts look great through A ball so far. We'll see.

Also, developmentally speaking, I'd like to see them move everyone who doesn't project to be a # 3 or better, or a finesse/control type whose stuff doesn't translate to pen (Heaney) to the bullpen probably at some point in AA. Why was Rasmussen starting? There is an argument to be made just to get his innings, but there is also a craft of warming up from the pen, going max effort 25 pitches, and pitching the next day. Rasmussen is going to be a reliever if anything. Marlins don't do any of that and grind these guys into the ground starting when it's obvious they are not front end SP candidate, but could be good bullpen candidates. Just how they play hitters out of position at the MLB level, I feel they fail some of the pitchers in the system by not developing them properly as a reliever arm. I think C. James and Conley have about a year to fix their shit, or it's time to turn them into fireball lefty relievers. Yea they are young, but I think after 4-5 years in college and a MiLB system, the scouts know what they have.

Take Eovaldi. Yea, not their system. But he is fastball/slider pitcher and they are trying to develop a 3rd pitch at the MLB level. The chances of this working are very slim. Best case scenario is he has a shitty 3rd pitch and becomes a #4 as he loses fastball velocity starting. That guy is a 1 year, $4-6 million deal in free agency which is nothing. Move him to the pen, let him pump 97 fastballs and throw sliders. It's not an insult, it just is who he is. That would help fill a big longterm need as well. Marlins could really use a "David Hernandez" to match with Cishek and Dunn(I still believe).

End of the day, for all the arm talent, there needs to be some more relievers. Starting pitchers are certainly more valuable if you can develop them, but why develop back of the rotation guys? Develop a front end (Johnson, Fernandez, Turner, Heaney), get # 2/3 starters in free agency as MUCH better investments than Heath Bell/even Papelbon contracts to fill out the rotation, and turn all of these other guys into relievers. A # 4 SP is likely a top end 7th inning reliever at minimum. I would love to see the Marlins be ballsy as fuck next year and open the pen with Bell, Cishek, Nolasco, Eovaldi, Webb, Dunn, and Jennings/Other lefty. That would be awesome, and the rotation is Johnson, Buerhle, FA # 3, Turner, and LeBlanc/Hand. That's a pretty neat staff, and 11 of those guys are currently in the organization. Shit ain't working, do something. And don't be afraid to cut the "starting" losses and make Conley or James a RP if they'd excel. As CJ Wilson shows, they could transfer back in a few years as they 'improve.'

[Valid]

And I also think that it's absolutely fair to look at it in a 2009-2012 time frame. That's when the '05 draft should be hitting. That's when the '06 firesalers should have been peaking and that's when the pieces from the Miggy trade should have been on the roster (and to it's credit, it did peak in 2009, there just wasn't "enough" there; Miggy in what would have been his walk year and/or one more starting pitcher puts that group in the playoffs, hell, getting anything of value for Miggy and that group's in the playoffs).

What he did before was kind of a shared blueprint (Lowell, Beckett, Castillo, Cabrera, etc) but as he really took the blueprint and made it his own, I don't think there's any denying that his teams have been pretty disappointing (save 2009) and he's spectacularly bad at developing players, especially pitchers.
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So, back to your original question, lou, yes, that absolutely should get him fired.

Yeah.

I've always been kind of a Beinfest supporter, and a lot of it had to do how I was absolutely thrilled with how he somehow managed to field a competitive team in 2006, but I think the fact that that core group never made it to the playoffs is pretty inexcusable. I think we can all agree that in 2008 and 2009 (moreso in '09), this team was really only a couple of pieces (if that) away from being a playoff club and a legitimate threat in the NL, but that potential was never realized. Some of that blame has to fall on the shoulders of Beinfest. Then again, if Nick Johnson doesn't get hurt in 2009, we probably make the playoffs.

[lou]

So, back to your original question, lou, yes, that absolutely should get him fired.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, however there is one issue that I "feel" for Beinfest with all those years. His payrolls. I have a really hard time bagging the guy for not excelling 06-11 with what he had to work with. And with us not knowing, whose fault was it for not buying out Cabrera? Beinfest? Samson? Loria? That person is who should be axed.

Yes, the drafts could have been better, but he also did acquire a pretty good core of the Hanleys, Ugglas, Dontrelles, Anibals, Nolascos, Codys, Bonifacios, etc at the same time. I feel the draft is one part of player acquisition. He's 'alright' at that, but he's pretty good elsewhere notwithstanding the Maybin/A. Miller deal that absolutely didn't pan out. I don't think this alone gets him canned. Those years are kind of like a "strike 1" to me.

2012, is absolutely strike 2. Considering Loria signed these guys through 2015 and are amazingly one of the longest tenured FO staffs, I think they get 2013. I think heads roll trade deadline 2013 depending on contender status.

[Valid]

As far as Cabrera goes, wasn't it basically "choose between Hanley and Miggy," and the FO chose Hanley?

[Bobbob1313]

Well, Hanley had like 4 years less of service time, so no.