Cameron Maybin Thread: Maybin Some Discussion, Maybin Some Fighting, It's All Good!

[Bobbob1313]

How does "Look what he's done since he's been up" equate to "picking just his best two weeks"?

He was bad in April. Has anyone disagreed with that ever? No. But you (Swift, since this is a digression from the game thread) are the only person who thinks he's destined for complete and utter failure (except for some morons over at MB) because of 231 (HOLY SHIT THAT'S LIKE NOTHING) PAs in his career. I'd like you to find me 5 players who, at his age, put up the numbers he did at the minor league level and failed to be even average MLers.

Whatever he should be based on what we gave up for him is irrelevant. If he's merely good, we shouldn't be pissed because of what we gave up. We should be happy that we have a good CFer.

[Bingebag]

He's a sunk cost. What could have been doesn't matter at this point. I totally agree bob2x.

[dgriot]

I agree that who was given up for Maybin is irrelevant in tracking his progression/development. I don't agree with the idea that the organization is immune from criticism, especially if Maybin ends up being merely good/okay/whatever.

[Fish and Chips]

trading miggy and expecting to get a younger, cheaper miggy is stupid, Miguel Cabrera dont grow on trees

[BigGameFish]

I water my Miguel Cabrera tree everyday

[Madman81]

trading miggy and expecting to get a younger, cheaper miggy is stupid, Miguel Cabrera dont grow on trees

we bad news bear

[FishFanInPA]

trading miggy and expecting to get a younger, cheaper miggy is stupid, Miguel Cabrera dont grow on trees

Trading Miggy and getting a shitty catcher, a potentially shitty lefty and an OF who is still waiting for his potential to hit isnt a good idea.

[Namaste]

nevermind

[Swifty]

Sure, some of my disdain for Maybin (at the moment) stems from the fact that he was part of the worst return imaginable for a player of Miggy's caliber earning what he figured to earn in '08.

My total lack of faith in Maybin, however, derives directly from Cameron himself. I don't know what one promising thing anyone has seen from him. I'm being serious. He doesn't put on a show in BP (Carroll does though). He doesn't gun people down on the base paths, his defense in center is alarmingly average for someone as fast as he. His mechanics in the box suck, his eye might be worse, he literally just punishes mistake pitches. Sure he can grow into his frame but he still doesn't elevate the ball consistently, nor does he square the ball up well (or for that matter, make consistent contact). And what's worse, his approach sucks. He gets himself into pitchers counts by almost swinging on the first pitch and whenever he's behind in the count, he happily obliges the pitcher by going after breaking stuff on the outer half. He's so messed up it's crazy for someone to look at it and say "oh, this guy is going to get it right, quickly."

Does he have a chance to be an above average major league player? Sure, I guess everyone does, but I don't see it as inevitable. Great players don't have that much fundamentally wrong with them. Hanley needed to fill out before he became a true power threat; Beltran needed to start going the other way more; Maybin needs to hit the ball. There's something really really wrong when this superstar in waiting can't put together a 3 line drive day to save his life. Forget 3 hits, 3 line drives.

But then you guys have it all figured out, if we just hang around and wait until he's 27 to become a so-so player, it's awesome because he plays centerfield. Forget the fact that if we didn't trade Miggy and just held him and let him walk for 2 draft picks we'd have gotten more out of that trade and played in just as many playoff games (who knows, perhaps more).

It's not fair to ask Maybin to be Miggy, that's why we got 5 other players along with him, it is fair to ask a "prodigy" to not look overmatched at the big league level.

[lou]

Sure, some of my disdain for Maybin (at the moment) stems from the fact that he was part of the worst return imaginable for a player of Miggy's caliber earning what he figured to earn in '08.

My total lack of faith in Maybin, however, derives directly from Cameron himself. I don't know what one promising thing anyone has seen from him. I'm being serious. He doesn't put on a show in BP (Carroll does though). He doesn't gun people down on the base paths, his defense in center is alarmingly average for someone as fast as he. His mechanics in the box suck, his eye might be worse, he literally just punishes mistake pitches. Sure he can grow into his frame but he still doesn't elevate the ball consistently, nor does he square the ball up well (or for that matter, make consistent contact). And what's worse, his approach sucks. He gets himself into pitchers counts by almost swinging on the first pitch and whenever he's behind in the count, he happily obliges the pitcher by going after breaking stuff on the outer half. He's so messed up it's crazy for someone to look at it and say "oh, this guy is going to get it right, quickly."

Does he have a chance to be an above average major league player? Sure, I guess everyone does, but I don't see it as inevitable. Great players don't have that much fundamentally wrong with them. Hanley needed to fill out before he became a true power threat; Beltran needed to start going the other way more; Maybin needs to hit the ball. There's something really really wrong when this superstar in waiting can't put together a 3 line drive day to save his life. Forget 3 hits, 3 line drives.

But then you guys have it all figured out, if we just hang around and wait until he's 27 to become a so-so player, it's awesome because he plays centerfield. Forget the fact that if we didn't trade Miggy and just held him and let him walk for 2 draft picks we'd have gotten more out of that trade and played in just as many playoff games (who knows, perhaps more).

It's not fair to ask Maybin to be Miggy, that's why we got 5 other players along with him, it is fair to ask a "prodigy" to not look overmatched at the big league level.

Johan Santana trade was much worse. And the Marlins had to get rid of Willis for value at the same time which eliminates any "but Santana made more money" argument. It's not going to be bad the second Maybin is a legit starter and Miller eats 180.

And I love dumping on 22 year olds. Great stuff. It's beyond discussion at this point, just be prepared to take your lumps next year if/when it comes together.

[Sashimi]

It may turn out to be a colossally shitty return in hindsight (I have my doubts about Maybin, too), but at the time it was hard to argue that we did not get perhaps the best deal the market would yield. Both Miller and Maybin were consensus top 10 or 20 prospects in the game, with Maybin cracking most prospect wonks top 5. Before that the Angels were the most serious suitors for Miggy and, by all accounts, were not all that accommodating (most of the talk centered around Kendrick, Mathis and maybe a Saunders or Santana) and certainly were not offering prospects as highly rated as Maybin and Miller. I would have loved to have gotten Kershaw from the Dodgers, but again by all indications the Dodgers did not have him on the table.

And, of course, our hand was hurt by the fact that we had very little leverage since everyone knew we could not keep Miggy. We gained a little leverage by shopping him that offseason because at least then we could make a credible threat that we would just go to arbitration with him and keep him one more season...keeping him beyond that was not credible.

[Swifty]

Lou, saying he's going to be good at 22 is like saying I'm going to be as successful as Peter Angelos because I'm in law school and like baseball.

I just can't understand what you see in him that's encouraging. I don't want to know what his WARP or PECOTA or ZAP or BLAMMO is, I'm not saying this in a crusty old school kind of way but he looks fucking awful. His swing is fucking awful and he only hits (and I use hit lightly) mistake pitches. That isn't encouraging. Not at all.

[lou]

Because I don't base things on a sample size of a few weeks in the majors at 21-22 years old. Or really at all for young players in general.

Chris Coghlan Pre-All Star Break, 230 PA .245/.342/.335 (.667)
Cameron Maybin Career, 225 PA .250/.325/.373 (.697)

Fuck.

Just saying. I don't suspect Maybin will have a .950+ OPS like Coghlan has had his next 250 PA, but it takes time to adjust to MLB pitching. Fuck the heck? I care about his back to back .850 OPS years in levels advanced for his age.

[Bobbob1313]

I mean, you're judging him based on when he was absolutely awful in April and then the last two weeks, when he's simply been not bad (and hasn't looked as retarded as you make him sound. Because you really make him sound like a retard going in the box swinging like a dead salmon.).

What do I see? I see a guy who has performed at every level in the minors and has shown some flashes of being a Mike Cameron type of player.

If you watched Dan Uggla's worst month, you would think he's absolutely worse than Cameron Maybin. Shit, if you just watched a month's worth of an average at bats from Uggla, you're overwhelming image of him would be someone completely lost at the plate who only hits mistakes. We can play this game with anyone who isn't a completely elite player.

Yeah, he's looked a lot more bad than good, but to pretend there is no good there is completely ridiculous. He's got good speed and I really don't see how you can say he doesn't square up the ball. Just today, you wrote him off because he hit a really hard hit grounder that the SS made a play on. That's how this whole fucking conversation started! And then you say his eye is worse than "suck". In his admittedly limited at bats this season even with his struggles he has an isolated discipline of .086. Only Hermida and Uggla have better ones on our team right now. For his career in the minors it's .089. So, you're wrong and just making shit up because you hate the guy.

You know what BJ Upton's OPS was through his first like 360 ABs? .660. He looked just as bad as Cameron Maybin and yet somehow, he managed to not be a fucking retard in the batter's box his whole career. Amazing how these things work. If you want, I can keep bringing up examples like this for you to completely ignore. Gary Sheffield at 23? 1100 PAs, .690 OPS!

You've compared him in the past to Preston Wilson, which just goes to show how little you actually understand about comparing players or judging talent.

[Swifty]

Bob, I really think you need to take a step back. I was right about Nolasco, people yelled at me, but suddenly people slunk away and conceded that. I was right about Dontrelle, I don't see anyone saying "yep Swift, you were right again." I got on the Uggla bandwagon ridiculously early, I got behind Hanley and Willingham. I backed Encarnacion (sorry) I called the Volstad demise before anyone else was willing to concede it.

I think I fucking know what I'm looking at. Thanks buddy. And, Sheffield is not a fair comparison, it took a league change and a move from his parent club to get him hitting .330, it took a position change to get him to be a fringe HoF player. He also was stuck in the majors, to stay for all intents and purposes, at 19. And you know what else, Maybin isn't Sheffield, Maybin isn't Upton, Maybin is Cameron fucking Maybin. That you look at him as just a number and Sheffield and Upton as just numbers screams how fucking stupid you are. It's not just the OPS he puts up it's how he fucking does it. He doesn't hit the ball hard, he doesn't hit line drive, he just hits worm burners. That he's 22 years old and putting up an OPS in the 600s doesn't mean it has to turn into an 800 OPS at 25 or a 1000 OPS at 29. That he can't hit a fucking major league pitch consistently hard is a bigger fucking problem than him being 22 years old. I don't care how old or young you are, if this is your fucking job and you're meant to be fucking good at it YOU SURE AS SHIT BETTER HIT THE FUCKING BALL ON A LINE. God fucking dammit I hate people like you that just reduce it to a fucking number and because someone else 20 fucking years ago struggled and became a Hall of Famer it makes it alright. Look at the fucking game once and a while and tell me what you see in an approach. In May you were breaking down the numbers on Nolasco, in September, suck my fucking ass bob you were wrong. In June it was Volstad, suck my ass again, you were wrong. I want Maybin to be good, I want all these guys to be good, I want to fucking win but open your fucking eyes, his approach sucks and there's nothing fucking encouraging about that. I see a guy who plays like that and I just think "he's been really really lucky."

[Namaste]

We need a smilie that just has a face and the face is eating popcorn out of a box.

[Bobbob1313]

You know what?

It's not worth it.

Mazel tov, Swift. You win! You have the biggest dick on the board. Congratulations.

[Party]

Lame.

[Namaste]

Woah. I was reading the first bobbob post and then it disappeared when I was about 85% done with it.

[Party]

I only got through 30%. Daft consider yourself blessed.

[Bobbob1313]

I "cut" it. If you want I can send a PM. But it's not worth posting it. I'm really not that interested in continuing a pissing contest with him right now.

I'm going soft in my old age.

[Beef]

Congrats Swift

[Party]

Why is this a pissing contest?

Board needs more of what's going on in this thread minus the profanity and hate.

[Swifty]

Thanks, I worked a long time to get here. I want to thank flum, and beef and festa and juanky. You guys stuck with me through the tough times.

I want to thank JJ, and hugg and bob and all the guys that hate me. And, I want to thank God, and his living embodiment on this earth, Cameron Maybin, and I also want to thank Hanley Ramriez, who proved to me that caring is overrated. Oh, and Larry Beinfest for making this all possible.

[Ramp]

Although I think he will be good, just based on what he's done at each level in the minors at a relatively young age, I gotta agree with Swift in some regard.

I remember reading all about Eric Reed, and how electrifying a leadoff man he was and how he sprays liners all over the field and how he was going to be even better than an awesome Juan Pierre. And then Reed got called up and it was like.... THIS IS THE GUY THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE A COOL LEADOFF MAN? HE CAN BARELY GET HIS BAT ON THE BALL, AND WHEN HE DOES, IT GOES NOWHERE.

Now I am not comparing Reed the player to Maybin the player. Just the general similar feeling I get. Maybin has shown me absolutely nothing, both offensively and defensively. He looks horrible at the plate and routinely lost. I get that he is just 22 and he should/could/would eventually be good. But man, he looks like absolute shit and it's hard to believe scouts are seeing the same player I am.

[Swifty]

:eek

[Bobbob1313]

Why is this a pissing contest?

Because he told me to suck his ass and he's not interested at all in anything anyone has to say. It was going to devolve too much from there, and I'm not interested in it. He didn't say anything new, he just told me I'm fucking dumb. So that's it. I could respond, but what's the point? I've made my points, he's ignored them because his eyes win all. I could point out that he has a 17% or better LD% over the last 3 years at the minor league level, but then he'll just say that the minors don't count or that all I care about is numbers (Funny story: remember the end of the Matrix when Neo sees everything in binary? I haven't watched a baseball game in anything but binary since 1983.).

The conversation between Swift and I has reached it's logical conclusion: Talking shit, pissing contests, being general douches. It's not worth it, I don't have the time right now, and quite frankly, I was embaressed by my response. My friend was reading it over my shoulder and I sounded like an idiot. But there's no other response than to elevate it, so why do it?

He knows my opinion already, I could keep adding more stuff, but as I've repeated numerous times, it's not worth it. Basically, if there's a discussion where two people obviously see two such divergent things, he's going to go to his eyes and I'm going with stats. It's two different trains of thought, but we're both stubborn dicks, so there's no agreeing to disagreeing. It's just a pissing match.

Maybe I'm going soft in my old age like I said, but I'm hungry and not all that interested in this anymore.

[Beef]

Kanye West has less talent than Cameron Maybin

(That's like negative talent)

[Ramp]

By the way, I def tried posting/interuppting during Swift's thank you speech

I mean he IS TSwift.... think about it... coulda been glorious

[Swifty]

haha. I see what you did there.

[Party]

::Admin Proclamation::
Sixteenth, September, Two Thousand-Nine

I bestow upon ye T. Swift, the User Rank of Biggest Dick.

May ye use your rank in the name of arrogance and the sucking of southern orifices.

[Beef]

Congrats Swift

[MiamiHomer]

I'm jealous.

[Ramp]

Men want to be him, Ladies want to be with him

[Beef]

Swift, my girlfriend's birthday is coming up. Can I borrow your dick?

[Swifty]

tee hee

[FishFanInPA]

Well done Swift.

[Chewford]

Although I think he will be good, just based on what he's done at each level in the minors at a relatively young age, I gotta agree with Swift in some regard.

I remember reading all about Eric Reed, and how electrifying a leadoff man he was and how he sprays liners all over the field and how he was going to be even better than an awesome Juan Pierre. And then Reed got called up and it was like.... THIS IS THE GUY THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE A COOL LEADOFF MAN? HE CAN BARELY GET HIS BAT ON THE BALL, AND WHEN HE DOES, IT GOES NOWHERE.

Now I am not comparing Reed the player to Maybin the player. Just the general similar feeling I get. Maybin has shown me absolutely nothing, both offensively and defensively. He looks horrible at the plate and routinely lost. I get that he is just 22 and he should/could/would eventually be good. But man, he looks like absolute shit and it's hard to believe scouts are seeing the same player I am.

But I thought he was the best Chanukkah present ever?

I do not like that we this crappy crap and the crappy crap Andrew Miller and that catcher guy who doesn't know the rules of baseball and a couple minor league pitchers are all we have to show for losing a future HOFer and a guy who was once a reliable ace for us.

[Ramp]

Way too early to be giving up on those two. Mike Rabelolo on the other chance, he is not for me.

And Dontrelle has lost it. Not like the loving feeling from Top Gun either. Fighter pilots will not get this back.

[Swifty]

I think Maybin has a chance to be serviceable. I said it at the time and I'll say it again now, Andrew Miller is the best chance we have in that trade of getting a perennial all-star. I still adore his stuff, I just don't think we'll ever find a delivery that allows him to have a consistent release point, and sit mid 90's. If he's throwing 88-91, his slider isn't a change of pace pitch, and it isn't tight enough to freeze hitters, he needs the mid 90's fastball or he's just throwing BP out there.

Other then that, the trade was awesome.

[FishFanInPA]

Clearly Swift you were forgetting that the ultimate win in this trade is getting the Hopper.

[nny]

hehe, sorry, but I think it's funny to spout off cherry picked things and say "well I was right about this and this so I'm right about this and everything else." I mean, I understand a lot of people do the same back to you, and cherry pick things you were wrong about, but it's still funny regardless.

[Swifty]

Nny, all due respect, the "swift's retarded" stuff started with Dontrelle, moved to how bad the Miggy trade was, then to Nolasco, then Volstad, now Maybin.

I mean, if there's a big one I'm missing, tell me, but I'd say that the times I went catastrophically against the grain, history's proven me right (with the jury still being out on Maybin and to a degree Volstad, but my point with him was never that he wouldn't be good, but that he couldn't survive with the stuff he had and the approach he was taking).

I really don't want this to turn into a thread about me, but where was I so egregiously wrong when I went out and became so associated with a player and my opinion of him?

[lou]

Nny, all due respect, the "swift's retarded" stuff started with Dontrelle, moved to how bad the Miggy trade was, then to Nolasco, then Volstad, now Maybin.

I mean, if there's a big one I'm missing, tell me, but I'd say that the times I went catastrophically against the grain, history's proven me right (with the jury still being out on Maybin and to a degree Volstad, but my point with him was never that he wouldn't be good, but that he couldn't survive with the stuff he had and the approach he was taking).

I really don't want this to turn into a thread about me, but where was I so egregiously wrong when I went out and became so associated with a player and my opinion of him?

Mike Jacobs

[Beef]

We all gon fight

[Swifty]

I never said anything about Mike Jacobs other than we're really going to miss him.

I don't think Nunez is a slam dunk better player than him, and I sure as shit think he's (Jacobs) better than what we trotted out at one corner this season for the first 4 months.

[Ramp]

I don't think we know exactly what Nolasco or Volstad are at this point.

By the way, since June 7th (I believe that was his callup, could be wrong) Ricky Nolasco stats are pretty damn good outside of his 4.14era

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Ramp101/nolascostats.jpg

[nny]

Except, atleast with nolasco and volstad, it's you just being negative but outside of everybody besides MBA agreeing with the end result (nolasco a ~4 ERA pitcher and volstad a middle of the rotation starter). People call you retarded because you act retarded by talking in retarded extremes (i.e. reading posts about ricky and volstad sound like they should never be in the league), not because the end result is retarded.

[Swifty]

Yeah, I definitely said they never belonged in the league. Good call there.

[nny]

(i.e. reading posts about ricky and volstad sound like they should never be in the league)

Yeah, I said you said. Good call there

[Beef]

That all depends on how you think he sounds

[Swifty]

Well nny, again, with all due respect, who gives a fuck what it sounds like.

It sounds like you take speed before some of your posts. It sounds like beef and ramp don't care about the team because their posts usually aren't complete sentences. I know that isn't the case. You know why, because I use my brain when I read a post on a message board. I get what people are trying to say, if I don't or if I disagree with what they're saying, I call them out on it. If you honestly believed I wanted these guys out of the league, you should have said something, because that would be me being fucking dumb. Otherwise, it's a case where you know that I have some degree of credibility and you know that no matter what the tone may have been, my point was merited...unless you're backtracking on that now too.

[Mainge]

Oh yeah? Fuck you Junior!

[nny]

I'm just saying people react the way they do because of what you sound like, not the end result you're saying. The end result you say, is not anything far out and is what majority think, at least with those two.

[Ramp]

Hanley doesn't care. Why the hell should Ramp?

[FishFanInPA]

I'm just waiting for the day that Ramp reveals he's a fan of the Braves or Red Sox.

[Swifty]

The end result you say, with you now acting like some martyr for saying them, is not anything far out, at least with those two.

I wish T&B was still up so I could really stick it to you and your 20/20 hindsight.

At no point was it ever "oh, you know, Swift's right."

Not until like, September, anyway.

It's not me being a martyr, it's me being very very very offended by the notion that I don't have an eye for talent.

[nny]

Yeah remember the thread I made asking what Nolasco was and everyone agreeing?

Remember that Volstad has been labeled a mid rotation start since, what, he was drafted?

And I don't care about the eye for talent thing (I don't think anyone here has any special eye for talent or you wouldn't be posting here), just that you're acting like you had some unique opinion when really they weren't (again only refering to those two)

[lou]

I never said anything about Mike Jacobs other than we're really going to miss him.

I don't think Nunez is a slam dunk better player than him, and I sure as shit think he's (Jacobs) better than what we trotted out at one corner this season for the first 4 months.

I really wish T&B was still here so you could remember the insanity you were spewing about him. And how we shouldn't sign players with OBP. And how we would barely win 72 this year. It was really bad.

I'm not saying you don't know shit about baseball, or trying to pick a fight here, I will wait till next summer when we can really evaluate Maybin, but you are as wrong as anyone else is on this board, and saying Volstad would fall apart, blah this. Whatever? Good call, it doesn't mean your eyes become a standard of evaluation. I remember when BOTH of us were arguing Nolasco should be a closer when he was struggling his rookie year and the other starters were being awesome. We fucked up on that too? I am guilty on Hermida big time? I wanted to ship out Uggla after his rookie year because, it just had to fall apart with that K ratio? Oh well.

But my point is, if you want to make an argument. Don't just say, "he looks fucking bad." I want to know why. Horrible GB/FB? No LD rates? No XBH? Shitting BB? Those 70+ Ks in his first 210 MLB AB? Poor defensive evaluations? Which is even more problematic, because I know you like to hate on Hermida's defense because he "looks bad" despite the fact he usually comes up as average at the position when the fielding bible gets a hold of him. Is this happening again? This doesn't mean we are devolved into a Matrix-binary view of baseball. But numbers are facts. They are a standard of evaluation. They count big time in coming up with a baseline standard of performance and if a guy is good, average, or bad. Maybin has been awesome everywhere except the majors as a 20-21 year old. This has to count in projections and it's just going to come together, in some capacity, in the future.

I just want to see a good argument even if we disagree. I just cannot accept from anybody this phrase.

"I watched the game. He looks fucking bad."

That's all I'm saying.

[Swifty]

I recall the terms "young Jim Palmer" and "next Roy Halladay" thrown around with him after his 6-1 start or whatever.

[nny]

I recall the terms "young Jim Palmer" and "next Roy Halladay" thrown around with him after his 6-1 start or whatever.

By idiots that do things like say Bonifacio is proof the Marlins FO is smarter than everybody else after the first series of the season, and MBA

[Swifty]

Lou, Maybin looks fucking awful because he has an incredibly long swing that makes Charles Johnson's look compact. Maybin looks awful because he takes bad drifting routes to the ball. Maybin looks bad because he more strikeouts this season than he does hits and walks COMBINED.

I don't think I could be any more clear. It's his eye, which leads to a ton of Ks, it's his long swing, which won't let him catch up to fastballs and it's his shockingly plain defensive ability (he doesn't even show flashes, he's just like "there" it's a drift, it's a normalish arm, there's nothing special about him, he drifts, he jumps when he doesn't need to, he always seems like he's out of position) that make me wonder what people saw in him that was so damn special. I bet he fucking killed it with an aluminum bat. You don't hit .800 or whatever he did as a senior unless you do, I don't care how fast you are. Maybe, after the next labor stoppage and we need some new pop in the post steroid world he'll get the chance to use the aluminum again, I don't know.

What I do know is that I really really really don't give a crap what the numbers say he should be doing. So long as he has a huge wind up and a big unfurling swing he won't hit the ball hard. You look at the minor league numbers and say the leap has to be made, I look at his actual physical swing and see no way he's going to consistently hit a major league fastball. Maybe he changes his swing this offseason, but this Cameron Maybin, and this swing is not going to do well in the major leagues.

Is that enough? Or is the only acceptable answer "he's had success in the minors, it has to translate, every successful minor leaguer has gone on to be a successful major leaguer."

[Party]

Look, I'm not going to moderate content on the board

BUT


Stop trying to discredit each other.

This business of going into everyone's closet and pulling out the skeletons is pretty fucking pointless (I've done it too). I don't see why 60% of the discussions on here need to devolve in who's the bigger moron and what purpose that serves. Everyone on here has said some pretty stupid shit in the past, but leave it in the past and discuss the issue at hand.

It makes for good giggle material, and believe me I enjoy this just as much as anyone else. But in the end, this constant back in forth is going to create an atmosphere where no one wants to posts to avoid a flame war.

[Omar]

Look, I'm not going to moderate content on the board

BUT


Stop trying to discredit each other.

This business of going into everyone's closet and pulling out the skeletons pretty fucking pointless (I've done it too). I don't see why 60% of the discussions on here need to devolve in who's the bigger moron and what purpose that serves. Everyone on here has said some pretty stupid shit in the past, but leave it in the past and discuss the issue at hand.

It makes for good giggle material, and believe me I enjoy this just as much as anyone else. But in the end, this constant back in forth is going to create an atmosphere where no one wants to posts to avoid a flame war.
I'm an admin and I approve this message

[Ramp]

But in the end, this constant back in forth is going to create an atmosphere where no one wants to posts to avoid a flame war.

Is this like Hanley be afraid to hit homeruns?

[Fritz]

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

[Namaste]

:mjpop

[Swifty]

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

ummm...yes?

[Ramp]

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Get the Goldshlager away from Fritz
--------------------
I'm just waiting for the day that Ramp reveals he's a fan of the Braves or Red Sox.

more like Mets

[Madman81]

Get the Goldshlager away from Fritz


Ehe, some of the lamest shit ever.

[Flum]

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
This made me lol.

[Bobbob1313]

Look, I'm not going to moderate content on the board

BUT


Stop trying to discredit each other.

This business of going into everyone's closet and pulling out the skeletons is pretty fucking pointless (I've done it too). I don't see why 60% of the discussions on here need to devolve in who's the bigger moron and what purpose that serves. Everyone on here has said some pretty stupid shit in the past, but leave it in the past and discuss the issue at hand.

It makes for good giggle material, and believe me I enjoy this just as much as anyone else. But in the end, this constant back in forth is going to create an atmosphere where no one wants to posts to avoid a flame war.

I feel like I pretty much said this and it became a joke about Swift having the best dick.

[lou]

First Argument - "He has a long swing"

I will never accept this argument for why a player is bad. This explains to me nothing about who a player is.

Second Argument "It's his eye, which leads to tons of Ks"

Ok...... cool. You didn't give me numbers, but this is a reference to numbers. I'm subbing out the small stints elsewhere in the minors, and using his core performance level per year.

2006, A, K/AB 30% (380 AB)
2007, AA, K/AB 28% (296 AB)
2008, AA, K/AB 31% (390 AB)
2009, AAA, K/AB 19% (298 AB)
MLB Career, K/AB 35% (204 AB)
2009, MLB, K/AB 35% (127 AB)

That is, a lot of Ks. Is it his eye? What's the other component of "the eye" we can measure easily.

2006, A, BB/PA 11% (429 PA)
2007, AA, BB/PA 12.5% (339 PA)
2008, AA, BB/PA 13% (460 PA)
2009, AAA, BB/PA 11% (337 PA)
MLB Career, BB/PA 9 % (225 PA)
2009, MLB, BB/PA 10.5% (142 PA)

Ok so he's walked everywhere. He's improved dramatically his K rate in AAA in 2009, while not insulting dropping his BB rate, (which explains his .320 average in NOLA which is great and not entirely BABIP inflated). So this seems to me he sees the ball pretty damn good. Especially considering he has been "old" for every level he's played at. So the K's are going up in the majors? Welcome to breaking bitches Cameron Maybin. Time to learn how to hit left handed pitching too (.727 RHP < - Cool, .557 LHP < - Not cool).

So you see. Argument 2 leads to a conclusion, but it's not what you're trying to support... It's not his eye. The K's suggest it's the swing, which is your first argument. This gives us the paradox of, "you are right, yet wrong." This is the shit that drives me crazy. There is nothing at all wrong with his eye based on Cameron Maybin. But could a long swing suggest these K rates and not catching up to the balls, and explain why he's "dog goneit not hitting the ball on the nose." Sure! That's an enormous 1500+ PA split for his professional career. The point with this is, just make a good argument and just don't type shit? A stream of unconsciousness could get to the right answer, see my Administrative Law Final Exam from the Spring Semester, but that doesn't mean it's a good argument if you're throwing everything against the wall and seeing what sticks. Which is what you tend to do when you start hating on something. "I'm going to bash him from every possible angle, so when he fails because it's inevitable, I'll have nailed the reason why somewhere." Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. Whatever.

"He has a long swing, making him strikeout. Look at how his K rates have remained constant 28-35%, and it's only a 300 AB outlier in AAA that's different. Look at the MLB spike, and how he can't hit breaking pitches cause he's hitting them at .120 and hitting fastballs at .270." (I made up those BAA numbers, only thing made up here but just typing that as a for example). Something man. I can buy that. I'll counter with a, but I'm encourage by his AAA K decrease and he's fucking 22. Rah Rah Rah. But at least we disagree over substance, and not numbers versus eyeballs. I cannot ever buy, "He has a long swing." WTF does that mean? I know this is a message board and not say.... court so maybe I am unrealistic about my expectations of people defending themselves with evidence, but christ. If anybody should be doing this. It's you.

[Bobbob1313]

First Argument - "He has a long swing"

I will never accept this argument for why a player is bad. This explains to me nothing about who a player is.

Albert Pujols has a pretty long swing and I remember recently reading that he actually doesn't have a very quick swing either (by bat speed).

I know, Cameron Maybin isn't Albert Pujols, but it's not a make or break thing.

[wanks1212]

Most players who are tall (roughly 6'3 and up, maybe 6'4 and up if you want to be picky) are generally believed to have "long swings," unless they're freaks of nature like, for example, Joe Mauer.

[JVega]

:mjpop

[Chewford]

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

I, for one, believe they have. I mean, when you look at string theory, you'd have to think so. How else do we explain the occurrence of black holes?

[Swifty]

lou, the problem is you're looking at the numbers and trying to explain how they got there. I look at how he gets to the numbers, and quite frankly think that any sustained success is just either option 1: "luck" or option 2: a AAAA player. That's not to say he's without hope, but rather that this player simply cannot be a force on his own merit. There's more to him than just minor league numbers.

That you look at the numbers and say "well, he walked at AA and walked at AAA" completely ignores the point of a professional baseball organization, winning ballgames at the major league level, and beyond that, you simply attribute his numbers to his success only. For you, it's completely inconceivable that Maybin piled up walks against pitchers with AAA ceilings, or against a guy who was two weeks away from having to bag groceries and lose his wife and kid. There's a hell of a discrepancy between Maybin, the aura of a top prospect, and a 28 year old AA pitcher trying desperately to get a September cup of coffee, they over throw, they stumble, they want no part of him. It's not hard to pile up walks against that kind of pitching, and make no mistake, I'm sure he saw that, certainly not every game, but more than you're willing to consider when you reach your "he has minor league walks, so his eye will translate" conclusion.

Which, again, brings us back to the primary point. I watch the game. I understand that in watching the game, there's a natural bias as the difference between a .280 hitter and a .310 hitter is minimal. I do, however, know that what I'm seeing with Maybin goes well beyond bias. HE IS OVER MATCHED. I simply cannot wrap my mind against any argument that defies the notion that he is over matched at the big league level. The only non-sequitor conclusion is your assertion that because he's been good in the minors he has to be good in the majors. You ignore that plenty of guys who are now great in the majors were mediocre in the minors, you ignore that minor league all-stars never see 500 big league at bats.. Your argument focuses so much on looking at the end result of Maybin as a minor leaguer that you simply retroactively explain his success, which, to me is ironic since you say you can't stand "I see, therefore it is" responses.

As I have said time and again, and as Ramp echoed earlier, there's a point where you hear so much about a guy you become enamored with him, and then when you finally see him at the major league level you wonder if there was some kind of mistake, if you're seeing the same player.

That Cameron Maybin killed AAA is awesome for New Orleans. That he did it at 22 isn't "oh wow get the fuck out of his way, here he comes" it's just good, encouraging. In this new era of baseball, 22 at AAA is slightly aggressive, but not Andruw Jones territory. What's more, AAA is a high level. It's not as if he made the jump from A to the bigs and looks like shit, he went from A to the bigs, got sent back, AA to the bigs, got sent back, now he's AAA and back and still looking like crap. I don't think it's even fair to say "welcome to the bigs, Cam." He's been here, even if you don't want to call the Detroit audition fair, he got a month with us last season, then he came back this April and looked like shit. At some point, there's no better explanation between his major/minor discrepancy other than, this is who he is. I have a really hard time saying success is inevitable when his minor league numbers are encouraging and his major league numbers are so so bad. It's not as if we're arguing over an average player right now who needs to take a step to greatness, he's a bad player who has a long way to go to be average. I'm willing to be patient with Maybin, and I am not saying this is the end of the road for him, but quite frankly, he should be more than a player than needs patience to just become serviceable. That cannot be the player I read so much about.

[Ralph]

racist

[Swifty]

I missed that.

[Bobbob1313]

he should be more than a player than needs patience to just become serviceable. That cannot be the player I read so much about.

Why? It happens with top prospects sometimes. I just don't see how you can ignore this like you did earlier. BJ Upton had a very similar situation to him and he turned out fine (like I said except for this year).

There are a ton of examples of guys who killed the minors, struggled early on (And looked "overmatched", which really doesn't mean anything because as I said, Dan Uggla looks over matched in most of his at bats, Cody Ross too. Doesn't mean they aren't good players) and still ended up being great players. Looking overmatched, or putting up bad numbers in 230 (!!!) PAs as a 20, 21, and 22 year old is not any sort of death knell.

You keep saying you're willing to be patient, but you talk about him as if he doesn't belong on a field. There's a high amount of dissonance between what you say in the middle and what you say at the end, which is just what Lou said.

Also, you seem to still be stuck on the fact that he was received in the Miguel Cabrera trade or that he's a top prospect. Like Nny said earlier, you criticize people and say "You guys are spoiled by Miggy and Hanley", but you write off a guy like Maybin because he's not 100% ready right now. It amazes me how you can, in one instance say "You can't compare Cameron Maybin and Gary Sheffield or BJ Upton because he is not those guys", but then say "He should be more than a guy who requires patience to be servicable" (ignoring that a .795 OPS is more than servicable from a CFer, which is what he has since coming up, albeit in a small sample). You can't have it both ways. Either guys follow their own development timetable (ie "he ain't upton") or they don't (ie "he should be better than this!").

[Chewford]

BJ Upton and a few others like Maybin turned out fine, other like him didn't turn out fine., none of it has any bearing on Cameron Maybin. Some people who play baseball suffer injury or death because they're trying to suffocate themselves as they finish jacking off; however, that has nothing to do with how Cameron Maybin will turn out.

[Bobbob1313]

BJ Upton and a few others like Maybin turned out fine, other like him didn't turn out fine., none of it has any bearing on Cameron Maybin. Some people who play baseball suffer injury or death because they're trying to suffocate themselves as they finish jacking off; however, that has nothing to do with how Cameron Maybin will turn out.

My whole point is that there's absolutely no reason to write a guy like Maybin off. And I know, Swift keeps saying "I'm wiling to be patient" and all that, but if you actually read what he's writing, that's not there at all. Yeah, he might look bad right now, but he's twenty-fucking-two. There's way more to be positive about than negative.

[Swifty]

If you actually read what I'm writing you see a more substantive discussion than BJ Upton turned out fine or he's only 22!!!!!!!

[Bobbob1313]

If you actually read what I'm writing you see a more substantive discussion than BJ Upton turned out fine or he's only 22!!!!!!!

Huh?

[Swifty]

Ok, we're now at the play dumb stage. That's fine and dandy. Keep shaking the BJ Upton tree and see if Cameron Maybin falls out.

[Bobbob1313]

Really?

You're entire point is "I don't like how he looks."

Discussion fucking over, then, doubly so if you're going to flat out ignore any point to the contrary. This is the problem with basing your argument on something purely subjective. You get to rebuff all comers by saying "I SEE WHATI SEE AND WHAT I SEE IS BAD AND ANYBODY WHO DOESN'T SEE WHAT I SEE ISN'T WORTH DISCUSSING THIS WITH."

That is, for all intents and purposes, your entire argument.

Lou brings up BB% (and how it has remained pretty constant at the Minor and Major league level, thus making your whole point about bagging groceries completely moot).

"I SEE HIM BEING OVERMATCHED!"

I bring up LD%.

"I SEE HIM BEING OVERMATCHED!"

Wash, rinse, repeat (with a little "scouts said he was the best ever and we traded miguel cabrera for him, so he should be ready now!" thrown in for good measure).

Well, shit. Good for you. But there's not really any point in this discussion then. If all you are going to bring is "I SEE I SEE I SEE" then nobody can say anything in reply. And if you're then going to turn around and say people are "playing dumb" then there's really no point in discussing this with you.

[Party]

Writing a guy off and saying he has shown nothing are two completely different points. Saying a guy is less than expected or expressing disappointment in a player is not writing off a player.

[Bobbob1313]

Writing a guy off and saying he has shown nothing are two completely different points. Saying a guy is less than expected or expressing disappointment in a player is not writing off a player.

I don't see how he has shown nothing, but that's an entirely subjective argument. Maybe I'm reading what he's saying wrong but when he says Maybin's entire minor league career is either "luck" or "being a AAAA player", that sounds like writing off.

[Ramp]

Maybin has literally shown nothing in the major leagues. I'd love to get all 230 of his at bats on tape and watch them (by love I mean hate). It's staggering how lost he looks up here. Again, not saying I think this is even close to the finished product but it's a similar vibe to that of Eric Reed back in the day. Scares the hell out of me.

Hopefully Maybin goess all Adam Jones on us next year (I AM NOT COMPARING HIM TO ADAM JONES YOU FUCKING R'TARDS) and takes a major leap. That would be for me.

[Party]

I don't see how he has shown nothing, but that's an entirely subjective argument. Maybe I'm reading what he's saying wrong but when he says Maybin's entire minor league career is either "luck" or "being a AAAA player", that sounds like writing off.

2009: .220 .306 .354 .660 (40 Games)
Career: .245 .319 .365 .684

That is how he has shown nothing with his bat. He has good line drive rates and strike out rates.......ok........there is something to watch, but when it has come down to converting all those favorable ratings into the three most important and easily recognizable stats Cameron Maybin has shown nothing in limited playing time at the Major League level. When OBP, SLG and OPS became subjective, I don't know.

[Swifty]

What has he shown in the majors?

18 extra base hits? 3 homers? 74 k's to 21 walks? A career .684 OPS? A 2009 OBP of .306?

Or are we already breaking his career down to games at a time to show success?

You can say he hasn't had a chance yet (I'd disagree, I think 235 career ML PA's goes well beyond "heya kid, take a look at this big league life") but to say he's shown something in his time up here is just silly.

[Ramp]

Now I also think we need to put him in a better position to succeed ala batting him earlier in the order with some protection in there. But that may be an entirely different argument altogether.
--------------------
ps... there should be a rating system on threads, this would get 5 starz
---

wow im a tard... there is a rating system

[Swifty]

Now I also think we need to put him in a better position to succeed ala batting him earlier in the order with some protection in there. But that may be an entirely different argument altogether.

Maybe you stop hitting him 8th in helping him develop, but no player is above the team's success. He's not going to help us leading off.

[MiamiHomer]

but no player is above the team's success.

Boner!!!

[Ramp]

That's why we should be batting him leadoff now. Season is over. Bat him somewhere in front of some actual hitters. Games mean nothing now. Wins just hurt or draft status (jokez... not like we'll draft anyone cool anyway, amirite?).

[MiamiHomer]

The more games we win the lower amount of money we need to pay our 1st round pick next year!

[Ramp]

Who says we even have to sign our first round pick?

[Bobbob1313]

I'd love to go back to last september and see if people were saying he had shown nothing. I seem to remember quite a bit of fawning.

And 235 ML PAs is literally nothing when spread over 3 seasons. The only time he's ever had a sustained opportunity, yeah, he blew it. I think he's looked pretty good since he came back up, and the .250/.350/.440 line he's putting up is not all that unimaginable from him for a full season.

You guys are talking about him like's been an absolute fucking zero. He was great last September, terrible in April and generally OK this September. He's striking out in 27% of his PAs, still a little too high, but he's also walking more and hitting the ball harder than he did earlier in the season. He's at a point where in September, 1 or 2 bad games (or good games) can really make him look significantly better or worse, but if we're going with "I SEE" then I see him making adjustments, working counts, and hitting the ball harder since he came back up.

And yet not a game thread goes by without Swift saying "Man, Maybin = Boner!"

[MiamiHomer]

Who says we even have to sign our first round pick?

touche.

[Party]

So bobbob is the only one allowed to bring skeletons out of the closest....I see. BUT DON'T DO IT TO HIM OR HE'LL RUN!!!

And yeah, he did show something last September but have we forgotten:

SSS


Shit, Maybin may make a flashy catch or hits a ball on the line once a game, but he has been a failure at doing it over extended periods. Isn't that the whole point about this debate?

[Swifty]

That awesome September of his came with 2 XBH's, both doubles. When you're as fast as he, you almost need to make an effort to just be a singles hitter. The exclusive ground ball problem was there then, and it's still here.

[FishFanInPA]

That's why we should be batting him leadoff now. Season is over. Bat him somewhere in front of some actual hitters. Games mean nothing now. Wins just hurt or draft status (jokez... not like we'll draft anyone cool anyway, amirite?).

The season isnt over yet goddamnit. :fist

[Party]

I mean, :boner can put together an 8 game streak where he is flat out awesome, but the consensus still is he has not shown anything at the ML level because he doesn't do it on a consistent basis.

[Ramp]

The season isnt over yet goddamnit. :fist

Go back in your cave

[FishFanInPA]

Go back in your cave

My cave has lollipops and chocolate bars and all is pleasant and bright. Yours is a dungeon of doom and hate.

[Party]

Ramp's dungeon has vagina in it though.

[MiamiHomer]

This thread has no bounds.

[FishFanInPA]

Ramp's dungeon has vagina in it though.

His own. :mischief


:confused

[Bobbob1313]

So bobbob is the only one allowed to bring skeletons out of the closest....I see. BUT DON'T DO IT TO HIM OR HE'LL RUN!!!

And yeah, he did show something last September but have we forgotten:

SSS


Shit, Maybin may make a flashy catch or hits a ball on the line once a game, but he has been a failure at doing it over extended periods. Isn't that the whole point about this debate?

Who brought skeletons out of my closet that made me run? that I was wrong about Nolasco and Volstad? I "ran" from that? I'm pretty sure you don't read then. I made it pretty abundantly clear why I didn't feel like having that discussion last night, but you can believe whatever you want.

And shit for that matter, who is bringing skeletons out now? Let's go back to September of last year and see how many people were down on Maybin. See how many people were criticizing his approach and saying he's shown nothing. These aren't skeletons, this is people selectively choosing what they see about Maybin.

They see April. They see strikeouts on breaking balls in the dirt. They see a GIDP last night.

They don't see him hit the ball hard as he has since he's been up. They don't see him improving his plate discipline (to a level that is pretty well in line with his minor league career). They forget that not a soul was criticizing him last September. I mean, honestly if it was so obvious that he's not ready, where was everyone a year ago?

And hell, Maybin's entire career is made up of small sample sizes. To ignore the good is just as foolish as ignoring the bad. You guys keep saying he's shown "nothing". That simply isn't true. Yes, he's struggled to be consistently productive, but I don't buy that he looks absolutely lost out there at all times. Young players struggle to find consistency, yes.

This is, I believe, the great divide between myself and Lou and somebody like Swift. Lou and I tend to look at things through teal colored glasses, and I won't deny that, but I think we also look at what a player has done in the past and what part of what they are doing now is most likely to be repeatable. Swift, on the other hand, puts all of the emphesis on what he sees, which is fine for him, but it doesn't mean jack shit in a discussion where nobody else gets to look through your eyes. You might be right sometimes, but the way you get there is often times completely wrong.

I'll concede that I'm an optimist. I'm a fan, why shouldn't I be? But that doesn't mean I don't see negatives. I think, if anyone's read my posts, they'll see that I've conceded that he hasn't shown enough consistently. But I can't say he's shown nothing. Why do we have to speak in fucking extremes anyways?

[Beef]

Swift, wanna go to spring training games next year with me and be the guys from Major League that only talk about how much they hate the team and how much the team sucks?

[Bobbob1313]

I mean, :boner can put together an 8 game streak where he is flat out awesome, but the consensus still is he has not shown anything at the ML level because he doesn't do it on a consistent basis.

I've been pretty hard on Boner, but I would never say he hasn't shown anything at the major league level. Maybe that's just me, but I see things about him that I like. Maybe this is just me being an optimist again, but there are things about him that I think can make him a useful player. This doesn't mean I want him leading off or that I don't think he is probably the number one reason we aren't going to the playoffs, but I just don't think he's shown nothing. Now, if you want to qualify it by saying they haven't shown they can consistently produce, that's one thing, but that isn't "shown nothing". Not by a long shot.

[Ramp]

Swift, wanna go to spring training games next year with me and be the guys from Major League that only talk about how much they hate the team and how much the team sucks?

Wild Thing. You make my heart sing. You walk everything.
--------------------
My cave has lollipops and chocolate bars and all is pleasant and bright. Yours is a dungeon of doom and hate.

realism and awesomeness.

[nny]

Man I hate things like "the problem is his swing" because if he starts doing well "he fixed his swing" even if he didn't do anything to his swing. This isn't pointed directed at you swift, I said the same thing to Sashami gal in the hermida thread. But there are almost no control and so many variables and things we just don't know that I hate reasoning like that. Normally it's just seeing what you want to see, normally it's just explaining how you want to explain it.

When it comes down to it, Maybin will only be as good as his strike outs allow him to be. He's already hitting for BABIP, he's already walking a lot, he's hitting for OK power. below average but not slap hitter like and with his power you can almost always count on growth.

But he's striking out 35% of the time this year, 35% of the time in his career, and now 33% of the time in September. This isn't really surprising with his 30% career K rate in the minors prior to this season.

I mean, if he continues to K 35% of the time, we're talking about the high 600% OPS bat he has been. 30%, low 700. 25%, mid 700. 20% (average), high 700. And that's all with room to grow in power and babip.

And he only struck out 19% of the time this year in AAA, so there is reason to be optimistic about it. Does he continue like that, does it translate? Who knows. But at least he has shown he can cut his strike out rate down.

Also, he definitely has hit the ball harder this time around. He already almost has as many LD's in september as he did at the start of the year lol. 16.7% LD rate. Still hitting a ground ball 60% so sigh at that.

[Beef]

The idea that saying things like his swing is the problem isn't necessarily wrong. To just always say I fucking hate that line of thinking is pretty silly. That's one reason teams have coaches. Sometimes players DO tweak something, in their swing or approach, that allows them to better succeed at the plate. Just sticking to fucking statistics all the time doesn't show shit and to simply say he is better because his BABIP did this also doesn't necessarily explain why things got better just like perhaps saying, must've fixed his swing might not be right. Might be right though.

[Bobbob1313]

The problem is a coach might specifically knwo what is wrong. That's fine.

But if all you are bringing to the table is "His swing is long" then it doesn't do anything. Like I said, Albert Pujols has a long swing and isn't necessarily swinging very hard, but he's awesome.

If you want to say he has a long swing and also swings really fast and that causes him to not be able to make adjustments to breaking balls, and that's why he strikes out so much, that's one thing. But just "he has a long swing" means nothing.

[Beef]

And he gon be good because his BABIP has been this and his BB% has been this and so other things will have to improve and balls will drop also means nothing

[nny]

The idea that saying things like his swing is the problem isn't necessarily wrong. To just always say I fucking hate that line of thinking is pretty silly. That's one reason teams have coaches. Sometimes players DO tweak something, in their swing or approach, that allows them to better succeed at the plate. Just sticking to fucking statistics all the time doesn't show shit and to simply say he is better because his BABIP did this also doesn't necessarily explain why things got better just like perhaps saying, must've fixed his swing might not be right. Might be right though.

there's a difference between a ML coach and joe smoe in front of a computer
--------------------
And he gon be good because his BABIP has been this and his BB% has been this and so other things will have to improve and balls will drop also means nothing

what

[Bobbob1313]

And he gon be good because his BABIP has been this and his BB% has been this and so other things will have to improve and balls will drop also means nothing

I disagree. Stating with 100% certainty he will be good because of those things means nothing. Just like stating with 100% certainty that he will struggle because of a long swing means nothing.

What means something is taking a subjective look at what he's done and making educated guesses on what he could do in the future. That means a whole lot more to me than "He has a long swing."

[Beef]

there's a difference between a ML coach and joe smoe in front of a computer
--------------------


what

huh?

[nny]

Just sticking to fucking statistics all the time doesn't show shit and to simply say he is better because his BABIP did this also doesn't necessarily explain why things got better just like perhaps saying, must've fixed his swing might not be right. Might be right though.

And I don't see this at all lol.

A players BABIP goes up, a player's OPS goes up. So how does a player BABIP not going up explain why his OPS went up?

Maybe his BABIP went up because he changed his swing. Who knows. Fact remains his BABIP went up.
--------------------
huh?

I don't even understand what you're trying to say

[Party]

there's a difference between a ML coach and joe smoe in front of a computer
--------------------


what

There is a difference between Joe Smoe and Johnny the lifelong baseball participant/fan sitting in front of his computer.

If we are going to use that reasoning, discussion should be shut down on this site because Larry B is an ML general manager with opinions that are often challenged on this website.

[Beef]

You're talking about the reason why a guy has more success. You probably don't have success because your BABIP goes up. Your BABIP goes up because you have perhaps changed something with your swing or approach that has allowed for the success. I realize that you tend to only stick 100% to numbers and stuff to explain anything, but its kinda weird and silly to say this guy's OPS went up because his BABIP did. Well no shit.... ? My GPA is higher because my grades went up

[Swifty]

Swift, wanna go to spring training games next year with me and be the guys from Major League that only talk about how much they hate the team and how much the team sucks?

Yes, yes I do.

I aspire to be them...one day. I nominate Matt Lindstrom to be "vile thing."

[Bobbob1313]

There is a difference between Joe Smoe and Johnny the lifelong baseball participant/fan sitting in front of his computer.

If we are going to use that reasoning, discussion should be shut down on this site because Larry B is an ML general manager with opinions that are often challenged on this website.

I will say if most of your argument is based on "I don't like his swing", you'd better have more in reserve than that, because it's a pretty crap way to make your argument, and it makes for not good debate because there's no way to disprove it and no way to prove it.

[nny]

There is a difference between Joe Smoe and Johnny the lifelong baseball participant/fan sitting in front of his computer.

If we are going to use that reasoning, discussion should be shut down on this site because Larry B is an ML general manager with opinions that are often challenged on this website.

And if Johnny the lifelong baseball fan was actually any good he wouldn't be sitting in front of his computer.

I don't really care for visual scouting from fans really, that's all it comes down to. Just because they aren't pro doesn't mean they aren't good, and just because somebody is pro doesn't mean they are good, but chances are, the pro knows what he's gonna be talking about, the non-pro doesn't.
--------------------
You're talking about the reason why a guy has more success. You probably don't have success because your BABIP goes up. Your BABIP goes up because you have perhaps changed something with your swing or approach that has allowed for the success. I realize that you tend to only stick 100% to numbers and stuff to explain anything, but its kinda weird and silly to say this guy's OPS went up because his BABIP did. Well no shit.... ? My GPA is higher because my grades went up

And well no shit.... ? Back at you. BABIP and stuff changes based off different approaches, changes in swing, physical growth, ect. .....And? Shouldn't that be rather obvious?

When swift or any one else here is a pro coach I'll let their opinion on something like that have merit.

[wanks1212]

If you want to bash a player, saying "I don't like his swing" doesn't work.

But saying "I don't like his swing because of this and this and this and this and all those four things make it likely he won't be able to consistently hit the ball hard at the ML level" is a fine argument, provided that "this and this and this and this" are all legitimate problems with a player's swing that would lead to him not hitting the ball hard.

[Beef]

When nny starts to get paid for something other than menial jobs I'll start to pay any sort of attention and accept any of what he claims are likely future stats and future team outcomes based on his projections

?

[nny]

When nny starts to get paid for something other than menial jobs I'll start to pay any sort of attention and accept any of what he claims are likely future stats and future team outcomes based on his projections

?

When did I ever claim that I should be listened to? I sure as fuck hope that would be the case on your part lol. There's a reason people post here and aren't paid for their opinion.

[Beef]

--------------------


And well no shit.... ? Back at you. BABIP and stuff changes based off different approaches, changes in swing, physical growth, ect. .....And? Shouldn't that be rather obvious?

When swift or any one else here is a pro coach I'll let their opinion on something like that have merit.

So then how does saying his OPS went up because his BABIP went up actually explain what changed with the guy?

My GPA is higher because my grades went up.

Where does that tell you what happened to cause my grades to go up?

Where is BABIP telling you what changed with a guy's swing, approach, size, speed, etc?

[wanks1212]

And if Johnny the lifelong baseball fan was actually any good he wouldn't be sitting in front of his computer.

I don't really care for visual scouting from fans really, that's all it comes down to. Just because they aren't pro doesn't mean they aren't good, and just because somebody is pro doesn't mean they are good, but chances are, the pro knows what he's gonna be talking about, the non-pro doesn't.


Well, but at the same time then can't you just say "I don't care for statistical analysis from fans" and only rely on guys like Neyer/Cameron/MLB FO people, becuase the pro knows what he's gonna be talking about, the non-pro doesn't? Or, "I don't care from prospect analysis from Ramp" and only rely on guys like Sickels? Should we just defer to professionals in every level of analysis and disregard any argument made by a fan that doesn't cite to a "professional."

I'm not saying that Swift (or anyone on this board) is inherently qualified to be judging an MLB player from a scouting perspective. But I wouldn't rule out that it's POSSIBLE for someone from this board to make the same observations that a scout would, in limited circumstances and with a large enough sample size.

I mean, if we had a guy where who was like a longtime player/high school/small college coach, woudl he not be qualified to scout a guy just b/c he's not a pro? Is his opinion disregarded? Where is the line drawn?

[nny]

So then how does saying his OPS went up because his BABIP went up actually explain what changed with the guy?

My GPA is higher because my grades went up.

Where does that tell you what happened to cause my grades to go up?

Where is BABIP telling you what changed with a guy's swing, approach, size, speed, etc?

It doesn't and I never claimed it did?

Although in the case of approach that would normally show in BB/K rates, size would be in power numbers, speed would be in speed numbers, ect.

But in a case of a changed swing, you can't say somebody changed their swing based off numbers. I don't know why you're arguing something I never said.
--------------------
Well, but at the same time then can't you just say "I don't care for statistical analysis from fans" and only rely on guys like Neyer/Cameron/MLB FO people, becuase the pro knows what he's gonna be talking about, the non-pro doesn't? Or, "I don't care from prospect analysis from Ramp" and only rely on guys like Sickels? Should we just defer to professionals in every level of analysis and disregard any argument made by a fan that doesn't cite to a "professional."

I'm not saying that Swift (or anyone on this board) is inherently qualified to be judging an MLB player from a scouting perspective. But I wouldn't rule out that it's POSSIBLE for someone from this board to make the same observations that a scout would, in limited circumstances and with a large enough sample size.

I mean, if we had a guy where who was like a longtime player/high school/small college coach, woudl he not be qualified to scout a guy just b/c he's not a pro? Is his opinion disregarded? Where is the line drawn?

I mean I basically said as much before. "Just because they aren't pro doesn't mean they aren't good, and just because somebody is pro doesn't mean they are good, but chances are, the pro knows what he's gonna be talking about, the non-pro doesn't."

I don't know anything about visual scouting. It'd be a lot harder for me to differentiate what somebody says that is either right or wrong with something visual scouting wise, than with statistics.

And there's also reason guys like Neyer and Sickels aren't in pro ball anymore. Just saying :mischief It's kinda like how I find it funny when somebody brings in a former GM for their opinion. It's like "OK, you were fired for being dumb, but let's hear what YOU have to say." :lol

[Party]

I'm just going to say Keith Law so it sets off his Google Alerts.

[Omar]

Man I hate things like "the problem is his swing" because if he starts doing well "he fixed his swing" even if he didn't do anything to his swing. This isn't pointed directed at you swift, I said the same thing to Sashami gal in the hermida thread. But there are almost no control and so many variables and things we just don't know that I hate reasoning like that. Normally it's just seeing what you want to see, normally it's just explaining how you want to explain it.
That's an incredibly short-sighted statement. Numbers are wonderful and they do an incredible job of predicting probable future performance, however they are insignificant without the physical activity that is actually going on. If the dude has a long swing, his numbers are reflective of his long swing. If he fixes it, then the numbers will reflect the change.

I understand that your issue is with people throwing the claim as if they actually know. Statistics are more bullshit-proof (keyword: more). However, if you're going to throw out the most important type of observation, why even bother observing?

As per variables.....variables are something like hidden injuries or something that's on a hitter's mind outside of the game. Whether his front side is opening up as he tries to swing at a pitch isn't a variable. It's clearly visible and anyone who has even a rudimentary knowledge of the game can see it pretty square and away. It's the same with a swing that is very slow, constantly under the ball, or starting from an off point.

EDIT: Just realized now I'm about an hour behind. Damn school.

[marlins_virus.exe]

ok i've excluded myself long enough from the greatest thread in this site's short history, and let me first say that i don't see why there's so much argument here, as the indisputable facts are this:

1) he looks, to the eye, overmatched at the plate
2) his season stats (ba/obp/slg) are not good
3) his sabermetrics (babip/ld/thggi/notoriousbig/etc) are not that bad/kinda good
4) his milb numbers are good

that having been said, i'm with swift.

generally. not entirely, but generally. maybin looks like he could do better closing his eyes and swinging based on his sense of smell right now. he looks like he has no business being up here and the reason that's troubling is because although he's only 22, he's been up in the majors 3 times now. there's no question his numbers in the minors are good. there's no question he has all the tools. but there's also no question that his swing is too long or that he's striking out in large quantities. the problem arises because after nearly 300 plate appearances in the majors, he still looks like the 19 year old just called up from single a. THAT'S the problem, and that's where swift's concern and ramp's questioning and my worrying comes in. sometimes you see a kid in the majors and see that he only needs to make one adjustment or a couple minor adjustments and he'll find it. cam has many, many adjustments to be made and that suggests that either a) he is farther off than we think/need/hope, or b) his ceiling is not as high as we thought/needed/hoped. that simple. do i think he can be an all star? hell yes. do i think he's close to being even an average mlb player right now? hell no. honestly right now, fielding not included, i'd rather have bonifacio in my lineup than maybin.

and i've been saying for a while he looks to me like preston wilson with a little less power. one day i'll be able to toot my own horn like everyone has been in this thread about that and about kyle skipworth being a shitty player, but that day is a few years away on both fronts.

[Swifty]

I got slayed for the Preston Wilson comparison, MK 7...be careful buddy.

[Beef]

If you call a bobbob attack a slaying, your dick is way not bigger than what it was though to be

[Ramp]

honestly right now, fielding not included, i'd rather have bonifacio in my lineup than maybin.

calm down there, scooter

[Swifty]

If you call a bobbob attack a slaying, your dick is way not bigger than what it was though to be

tee hee

[Namaste]

A lot of well thought out posts in this thread.

I'd like to say two things.


Cameron looks lost because he is young and more importantly, he is trying too hard.

Watch his face when he swings and misses. He beats himself up mentally everytime he goes after the breaking ball in the dirt. He is the anti-Hermida in that sense.



And the second thing Id like to say is that this thread never happens if I didn't needle Swift about his short, snide Maybin remark in the game thread. : )


/needs to be center of attention at times

[Bobbob1313]

I got slayed for the Preston Wilson comparison, MK 7...be careful buddy.

You got slated because the two aren't really comparable. Being a black centerfielder who strikes out isn't enough to base a comp on. Sorry.

Preston Wilson never walked. Ever.

I know you have it in your head that cam doesn't have a good eye, but the point is he's walked everywhere, even in the majors. Come on. To quote you, it's not like this is fucking hard.

Everything about him screams mike Cameron. You could argue it's a poor mans mike Cameron, but he's not really at all like Preston Wilson.

[CrimsonCane]

And if Johnny the lifelong baseball fan was actually any good he wouldn't be sitting in front of his computer.

I don't really care for visual scouting from fans really, that's all it comes down to. Just because they aren't pro doesn't mean they aren't good, and just because somebody is pro doesn't mean they are good, but chances are, the pro knows what he's gonna be talking about, the non-pro doesn't.

This isn't specific to nny but his post sums up the mind set of a lot of the posters who have criticized Swift's analysis. I find it odd that people with absolutely no formal education in statistics (no degree, probably not even anything more than an introduction to statistics course) are throwing out numbers and stats to back up their side but, at the same time, saying someone who isn't a pro scout isn't likely to be able to see anything meaningful for analysis when they watch baseball.

By that logic, wouldn't we have to question everything you post and doubt whether it's possible for you to comprehend the very statistics you're throwing out and whether you know what circumstances they ought to be used?

[Beef]

This isn't specific to nny but his post sums up the mind set of a lot of the posters who have criticized Swift's analysis. I find it odd that people with absolutely no formal education in statistics (no degree, probably not even anything more than an introduction to statistics course) are throwing out numbers and stats to back up their side but, at the same time, saying someone who isn't a pro scout isn't likely to be able to see anything meaningful for analysis when they watch baseball.

By that logic, wouldn't we have to question everything you post and doubt whether it's possible for you to comprehend the very statistics you're throwing out and whether you know what circumstances they ought to be used?

Yeah.
--------------------
Granted, with statistics, a not so smart fellow can be like, all the work is already done for me so I can just throw out numbers and say, see? His BABIP went up so his OPS went up, now you know why he improved!

[nny]

This isn't specific to nny but his post sums up the mind set of a lot of the posters who have criticized Swift's analysis. I find it odd that people with absolutely no formal education in statistics (no degree, probably not even anything more than an introduction to statistics course) are throwing out numbers and stats to back up their side but, at the same time, saying someone who isn't a pro scout isn't likely to be able to see anything meaningful for analysis when they watch baseball.

By that logic, wouldn't we have to question everything you post and doubt whether it's possible for you to comprehend the very statistics you're throwing out and whether you know what circumstances they ought to be used?

There's two things.

1) I certainly hope you question everything I post. Why in God's name would you take something I say and not question it?

2) I don't create statistics. I quote statistics. That'd be the equivalent of somebody quoting a scout, not acting like a scout.
--------------------
Yeah.
--------------------
Granted, with statistics, a not so smart fellow can be like, all the work is already done for me so I can just throw out numbers and say, see? His BABIP went up so his OPS went up, now you know why he improved!

This is you constantly saying nothing.

[Swifty]

Except it's a lot easier to quote a scout without distorting his meaning since we're all somewhat proficient in the English language (granted, some more than others).

[nny]

Except it's not like statistics are hard to understand.

And if they either are too hard for you to understand, or you don't care enough to understand them, then you ignore them. What exactly am I missing here?

[Bucklin12]

I haven't posted here in awhile, due to serious time constraints, the minor league season ending, and honestly, a plain boredom with the content (No offense to Festa or anyone else who has done an excellent job providing a reasonable place for baseball discussion).

This thread, however, has invigorated my desire for being right.

Question:
Out of all the words that have been chastised in this thread, how did this paragraph make it through?

That you look at the numbers and say "well, he walked at AA and walked at AAA" completely ignores the point of a professional baseball organization, winning ballgames at the major league level, and beyond that, you simply attribute his numbers to his success only. For you, it's completely inconceivable that Maybin piled up walks against pitchers with AAA ceilings, or against a guy who was two weeks away from having to bag groceries and lose his wife and kid. There's a hell of a discrepancy between Maybin, the aura of a top prospect, and a 28 year old AA pitcher trying desperately to get a September cup of coffee, they over throw, they stumble, they want no part of him. It's not hard to pile up walks against that kind of pitching, and make no mistake, I'm sure he saw that, certainly not every game, but more than you're willing to consider when you reach your "he has minor league walks, so his eye will translate" conclusion.

[Swifty]

Nothing other than the entire premise behind CC's merited post.

[nny]

His premise is the same premise I'm using though?

[Beef]

Nny, I don't think you tend to know what you're talking about.

You can keep quoting me and saying things like I'm not saying anything, but the reality is that my posts make sense and get more to the point that you are saying nothing. You tend to argue things and I think you have no idea what you are arguing because a sensible response to one of your arguments will just get a response of, whats that got to do with what I'm saying?

You can throw out all sorts of numbers that people formulate for you, but it still doesn't show what a player has done to improve, change his numbers, etc.

[nny]

Nny, I don't think you tend to know what you're talking about.

You can keep quoting me and saying things like I'm not saying anything, but the reality is that my posts make sense and get more to the point that you are saying nothing. You tend to argue things and I think you have no idea what you are arguing because a sensible response to one of your arguments will just get a response of, whats that got to do with what I'm saying?

You can throw out all sorts of numbers that people formulate for you, but it still doesn't show what a player has done to improve, change his numbers, etc.

And I don't think you tend to know what I'm talking about lol

It's funny that your second paragraph ends with what's that got to do with what I'm saying?

When that's my answer to your third paragraph lol

which I've never said otherwise and I agree with and I have constantly said as much in this thread.

[Swifty]

No, it's not.

His point is you have no more of a right to a statistical opinion than I do a visual opinion. In both instances we're merely relying off of what we have trained ourselves to understand.

It doesn't even enter into the fact that you've admitted when you actually watch a game you have no idea what you're looking at, that your understanding of the game only goes so far as what your computer tells you, and thus only see the game from one angle.
--------------------
And everybody hates everyone now. This thread is epic. Thank you Cameron Maybin.

[Beef]

You also tried to claim that a rising BABIP is caused by certain things like a change in approach, tweaked swing, increase in size, so it is all included in BABIP and thus can explain why someone has improved.

But you are also saying statistics cannot tell such a story.

[Fish and Chips]

stats arent bias though, visual opinions are

[nny]

No, it's not.

His point is you have no more of a right to a statistical opinion than I do a visual opinion. In both instances we're merely relying off of what we have trained ourselves to understand.

I'VE BEEN CONSTANTLY SAYING THIS CHRIST. I'VE BEEN CONSTANTLY FUCKING SAYING THIS

SERIOUSLY ARE YOU GUYS RETARDED?

[Swifty]

So then, if we're doing the same thing, and we're on equal footing, why do you "hate" when people do what I do? Why is it silly to look at mechanics and see a problem? Do you then hate yourself when you throw out SINAFDCVDIESDGQWQAR and FDVSOES and ZAPKAPOW! ?

[Chewford]

stats arent bias though

This is not true. :chew

[nny]

You also tried to claim that a rising BABIP is caused by certain things like a change in approach, tweaked swing, increase in size, so it is all included in BABIP and thus can explain why someone has improved.

But you are also saying statistics cannot tell such a story.

BABIP rising explains why OPS rises, just like your grades rising explain why your GPA rose.

Why did the BABIP rise? Same thing with why did you grades rise?

You're completely mixing the process and the results togeather.

[Beef]

I'VE BEEN CONSTANTLY SAYING THIS CHRIST. I'VE BEEN CONSTANTLY FUCKING SAYING THIS

SERIOUSLY ARE YOU GUYS RETARDED?

Like I said, I think you don't really understand what you are saying
--------------------
BABIP rising explains why OPS rises, just like your grades rising explain why your GPA rose.

Why did the BABIP rise? Same thing with why did you grades rise?

You're completely mixing the process and the results togeather.

No, you are.

If somebody legitimately asks me why my GPA went up and I say it is because my grades went up and I think that is a clever response, I am a stupid asshole that sucks at understanding why things happen. Yeah, my GPA went up because my grades went up, but like I said, NO SHIT. Why did that happen? Did I study more? Were the classes easier? Were the other people in my classes dumber by comparison?

If some guy has a shitty plate approach and somebody says he tweaked his swing and then somebody else asks me, why did his OPS rise? His OPS rose because his BABIP rose. Oh, well thanks. That explains a lot to me!
Why did his average rise? Because he got more hits during his plate appearances. Cool, thanks man, now I see, this guy must really be something, really great changes he made

[nny]

So then, if we're doing the same thing, and we're on equal footing, why do you "hate" when people do what I do? Why is it silly to look at mechanics and see a problem? Do you then hate yourself when you throw out SINAFDCVDIESDGQWQAR and FDVSOES and ZAPKAPOW! ?

Because in my experience people don't know what the fuck they're talking about, but I have faith in what I believe in.

And that doesn't mean you should listen to me because I have faith in what I believe in. That'd be fucking retarded, because majority of people don't know what the fuck they're talking about, and last I checked I'm a person.

I mean this entire thing is stupid. You and others are constantly trying to say the same premise can be put back on me, i say NO SHIT, and yet you keep saying it can be put back on me, NO FUCKING SHIT. Jesus. I fucking PRAY TO GOD it's used on me because then ya'll would be fucking even more retarded. I'm gonna be wrong a lot more than I'm right just like everyone else here.

Jesus christ.

[Omar]

stats arent bias though, visual opinions are
The statistic isn't biased, the presenter is.

[nny]

If somebody legitimately asks me why my GPA went up and I say it is because my grades went up and I think that is a clever response, I am a stupid asshole that sucks at understanding why things happen. Yeah, my GPA went up because my grades went up, but like I said, NO SHIT. Why did that happen? Did I study more? Were the classes easier? Were the other people in my classes dumber by comparison?

If some guy has a shitty plate approach and somebody says he tweaked his swing and then somebody else asks me, why did his OPS rise? His OPS rose because his BABIP rose. Oh, well thanks. That explains a lot to me!
Why did his average rise? Because he got more hits during his plate appearances. Cool, thanks man, now I see, this guy must really be something, really great changes he made

:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol

You're really constantly missing my point

I mean, you're arguing over things I'm not arguing still. Basically all of what you said I agree with.

What I'm saying is, the part I bolded, I don't trust anyones qualifications here to make the assessment of what changed.

[Beef]

So what nny is saying is that nobody should listen to anything anybody here says because it is likely that we are all tards.

We'd be retarded to listen to each other because everything we say is very possibly retarded

[Ramp]

Let the record show that I am not a tard.

[Beef]

Based on the fact that you are a human being, I'd be retarded to trust that you are not retarded

[nny]

So what nny is saying is that nobody should listen to anything anybody here says because it is likely that we are all tards.

We'd be retarded to listen to each other because everything we say is very possibly retarded

That's a hyperbolic explanation of it but yes. Question everything.

[Ramp]

I have a cupcake next to my name

perhaps I am a tard

[Swifty]

Because in my experience people don't know what the fuck they're talking about, but I have faith in what I believe in.

And that doesn't mean you should listen to me because I have faith in what I believe in. That'd be fucking retarded, because majority of people don't know what the fuck they're talking about, and last I checked I'm a person.

I mean this entire thing is stupid. You and others are constantly trying to say the same premise can be put back on me, i say NO SHIT, and yet you keep saying it can be put back on me, NO FUCKING SHIT. Jesus. I fucking PRAY TO GOD it's used on me because then ya'll would be fucking even more retarded. I'm gonna be wrong a lot more than I'm right just like everyone else here.

Jesus christ.

So then why do you talk? What do you possibly have to gain from believing that you are the only person on here that's credible? Then you turn around and say that since you are a person you should be doubted too?

I'm with beef, I don't think you have any idea what you are trying to say or how to say it.

At the same time of espousing supreme self confidence, you say you don't trust anyone's opinion, and no one should trust yours. It's so inherently contradictory it's nearly insane.

[Beef]

I have a cupcake next to my name

perhaps I am a tard

I think it is an upside down chef's hat full of butter

[Ramp]

souffle?

[Beef]

It might be a souffle

[Swifty]

I want a cupcake now.

Ramp, you ever go to Magnolia?

[Beef]

I went to Crumbs

It sucked
--------------------
But dont take my word for it, I'm a human

[Swifty]

Crumbs does suck. There's one right here on campus and it's awful...except for the banana nut muffins. Those are yummy.

[nny]

So then why do you talk? What do you possibly have to gain from believing that you are the only person on here that's credible? Then you turn around and say that since you are a person you should be doubted too?

I'm with beef, I don't think you have any idea what you are trying to say or how to say it.

At the same time of espousing supreme self confidence, you say you don't trust anyone's opinion, and no one should trust yours. It's so inherently contradictory it's nearly insane.

para1: for one, something to do lol. for two, because there's still a lot to learn, and there's still the possibility of learning. For three, to see if somebody comes up with question of what I believe that I didn't think of myself. This is why wanks became my favorite poster ever.

para2 and para 3: it's just a constant misunderstanding on ya'll's part. One should believe in themself, otherwise they're setting themself up for failure really. That doesn't mean they are superior.

[Ramp]

I want a cupcake now.

Ramp, you ever go to Magnolia?

Yea... friggin heaven... makes me feel like this :marchmellow

[Namaste]

I haven't posted here in awhile, due to serious time constraints, the minor league season ending, and honestly, a plain boredom with the content (No offense to Festa or anyone else who has done an excellent job providing a reasonable place for baseball discussion).

This thread, however, has invigorated my desire for being right.

Question:
Out of all the words that have been chastised in this thread, how did this paragraph make it through?




Who are you? :confused

[Swifty]

Yea... friggin heaven... makes me feel like this :marchmellow

Have you been to both locations?

I heard the one in lincoln center doesn't have a cupcake limit, but the one on bleecker is like 15 seconds from my apartment.

I'm bored and need to know if one's better!

[Chewford]

I'm not sure what a cupcake limit is, but I'd imagine the absence of one would be dangerous.

[Sandroimbuto]

cupcake limit strictly enforced

[Ramp]

Have you been to both locations?

I heard the one in lincoln center doesn't have a cupcake limit, but the one on bleecker is like 15 seconds from my apartment.

I'm bored and need to know if one's better!

I have been to Bleecker and Rockefeller... No clue on limits. Never needed that kind of rush. Both are exceptional

Now I'm hungee :marchmellow

[Namaste]

Cupcake limits?

Seriously?

First why would the sellers have limits? Second, why would the buyers care about the limits?

Heart disease people. Google it.

[Chewford]

They cut off cupcake sales after the 7th inning.

[FishFanInPA]

I once got into a car accident with a guy who had too many. It was a bad scene.

[Ramp]

Cupcake limits?

Seriously?

First why would the sellers have limits? Second, why would the buyers care about the limits?

Heart disease people. Google it.

The lines are out the door 24/7. It's absolute chaos at this place

[Swifty]

Yeah daft, you don't understand. When you wait in line for 20 minutes, you want to take a box home with you for the rest of the week.
--------------------
And I'm mad at sex and the city. 7 years ago when I first got up here I could go and get some icebox cake at magnolia no problemo, now it's like wait in line for 30 minutes to find out THEY GOT RID OF THE PEPPERMINT ICEBOX CAKE!!!!! That broke my heart.

[Bucklin12]

Who are you? :confused

Bucklin12.

[Ramp]

yea, was down on bleecker a few weeks ago after din, tryin to get some dessert... line was atleast 50 peeps deep

[Swifty]

Where'd you go to dinner?

[Ramp]

Nero... down in meatpacking

[Swifty]

Ah...I'm not a fan of the meatpacking. Too much meat...not enough packing.
--------------------
On the subject though, I'm a fan of the old homestead. Actual steakhouse from when the meatpacking was actually referring to meat from a cow and not the man meat.

[marlins_virus.exe]

take it to the chat thread or food thread, boys. no non-namecalling allowed here.

[Ramp]

can I get a clarification of what that is next to my name?

[Bingebag]

http://www.soflamarlins.com/member.php?u=37

spam award: frequent poster. its on your member page.

[Ramp]

but it looks like souffle not spam

therefore i am great

[Swifty]

Ok, ok, back on topic. Ramp I hate your stupid souffle and I hate Gaby Sanchez even more!

[marlins_virus.exe]

there we go

[Ramp]

Ok, ok, back on topic. Ramp I hate your stupid souffle and I hate Gaby Sanchez even more!

when Gaby Sanchez becomes the best thing since Dr Brown invented soda (not Dr Pepper you jerk), I'm gonna send you a 6 pack of diet Cel-Ray and you will drink it... you will drink the bitterness that is Gaby Sanchez's awesomeness

[Swifty]

Is that like drinking his sweat? Cuz that sounds kinda kinky.

[Ramp]

if you've ever had the cel-ray or even smelled it, it might as well be sweat

(Ralph loves it)

[Swifty]

Ralph would. He's into that crazy stuff.

[dgriot]

nny doesn't succumb to appeal to authority
--------------------
And I was genuinely amazed how much I liked cel-ray the first time I had it.